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> Failure is failure. It's not awesome. Why would you relish it? You're beating on a straw man. Nobody (very few people?) thinks the failure itself is good in

> Failure is failure. It's not awesome. Why would you relish it? You're beating on a straw man. Nobody (very few people?) thinks the failure itself is good in and of itself. The mentality is to observe that even if a business endeavour ends in financial failure, that outcome is just one effect of a long process that had many effects, and that many of the other effects of the process were highly beneficial. Sure, some people are out of a job, and some investment money has been lost - these are bad things, and nobody is claiming otherwise. On the other hand, many people have been gainfully employed for some time, and have gained a great deal of professional experience. That value has not been lost. Open source software has been created, and continues to be useful. That value has not been lost. Investors have lost money on this bet, but if they distributed their risk over many bets, they are probably going to come out ahead of where they would be if they made no bets whatsoever. Many people have learned some lessons about why a business may fail to be financially successful, and can use that knowledge to build financially successful businesses in the future. In sum: much value has been created which would not exist if this business had not been attempted, even if it ended in financial failure.

shusakuendo 10y ago
> beating on a straw man The guy literally says he relishes failure...
Frondo 10y ago
I think the critical idea is separating out the idea of the business failure and a moral failure on the part of those involved. Businesses fail, and that's often sad. They even fail when you do everything right. It's just not shameful to have your business fail, nor in itself a mark on the character of those involved.
BinaryIdiot 10y ago
> You're beating on a straw man. How so? If you're stating that you're going to greatly enjoy your failure, how is that not making failure seem good? Can you greatly enjoy something that you don't consider awesome (greatly being the keyword)? Seems like we could split hairs over this in a variety of different ways. On the other hand the rest of your post discusses the value created out of a failed company which wasn't related to the context of my post. I think we're going to be arguing in straw man circles :) > if they distributed their risk over many bets, they are probably going to come out ahead of where they would be if they made no bets whatsoever Not necessarily true, actually. The best investors come out ahead. The majority of them near break even or lose money on a fund. At least this is what I've always found unless you have a source I could take a look at?
- Nacraile 10y ago
  > On the other hand the rest of your post discusses the value created out of a failed company which wasn't related to the context of my post. "not relevant"? The entire point of my response was to point out that the fundamental flaw in your argument is that you are ignoring the wider effects of the business process, while the "failure is success" mentality is all about taking into consideration those same wider effects. > If you're stating that you're going to greatly enjoy your failure, how is that not making failure seem good? Can you greatly enjoy something that you don't consider awesome. You don't enjoy the failure, but you can still enjoy the process that happens to lead to the failure, and the net outcome can still be positive. Once again: the mentality you're attempting to criticise is all about accounting for the entire process and all of its outcomes, and not narrow-mindedly focusing on just the financial outcome for the business. > I think we're going to be arguing in straw man circles If you continue to insist on equivocating between financial failure of the business (an individual outcome) and the holistic outcome of the entire process, yes. Well, I won't bother to continue responding, but that's beside the point.
  - BinaryIdiot 10y ago
    > You don't enjoy the failure, but you can still enjoy the process that happens to lead to the failure, and the net outcome can still be positive. But like I said you're adding your own words / perspective to the post. None of this was said nor implied hence: >> I think we're going to be arguing in straw man circles
- vacri 10y ago
  > If you're stating that you're going to greatly enjoy your failure 'Relish' in this context doesn't mean 'greatly enjoy', as in entertainment. It means simply 'to significantly value', as in valuing the learning opportunity, but not necessarily the event itself.
  - BinaryIdiot 10y ago
    > It means simply 'to significantly value' Er, not trying to be pedantic but I can't find this definition anywhere. Is that an informal use? I only see references to the condiment or similar to 'greatly enjoy'. Might be one of those cases where using more specific wording would have helped the blog entry.

shusakuendo 10y ago

> beating on a straw man The guy literally says he relishes failure...

Frondo 10y ago

I think the critical idea is separating out the idea of the business failure and a moral failure on the part of those involved. Businesses fail, and that's often sad. They even fail when you do everything right. It's just not shameful to have your business fail, nor in itself a mark on the character of those involved.

BinaryIdiot 10y ago

> You're beating on a straw man. How so? If you're stating that you're going to greatly enjoy your failure, how is that not making failure seem good? Can you greatly enjoy something that you don't consider awesome (greatly being the keyword)? Seems like we could split hairs over this in a variety of different ways. On the other hand the rest of your post discusses the value created out of a failed company which wasn't related to the context of my post. I think we're going to be arguing in straw man circles :) > if they distributed their risk over many bets, they are probably going to come out ahead of where they would be if they made no bets whatsoever Not necessarily true, actually. The best investors come out ahead. The majority of them near break even or lose money on a fund. At least this is what I've always found unless you have a source I could take a look at?

Nacraile 10y ago
> On the other hand the rest of your post discusses the value created out of a failed company which wasn't related to the context of my post. "not relevant"? The entire point of my response was to point out that the fundamental flaw in your argument is that you are ignoring the wider effects of the business process, while the "failure is success" mentality is all about taking into consideration those same wider effects. > If you're stating that you're going to greatly enjoy your failure, how is that not making failure seem good? Can you greatly enjoy something that you don't consider awesome. You don't enjoy the failure, but you can still enjoy the process that happens to lead to the failure, and the net outcome can still be positive. Once again: the mentality you're attempting to criticise is all about accounting for the entire process and all of its outcomes, and not narrow-mindedly focusing on just the financial outcome for the business. > I think we're going to be arguing in straw man circles If you continue to insist on equivocating between financial failure of the business (an individual outcome) and the holistic outcome of the entire process, yes. Well, I won't bother to continue responding, but that's beside the point.
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  > You don't enjoy the failure, but you can still enjoy the process that happens to lead to the failure, and the net outcome can still be positive. But like I said you're adding your own words / perspective to the post. None of this was said nor implied hence: >> I think we're going to be arguing in straw man circles
vacri 10y ago
> If you're stating that you're going to greatly enjoy your failure 'Relish' in this context doesn't mean 'greatly enjoy', as in entertainment. It means simply 'to significantly value', as in valuing the learning opportunity, but not necessarily the event itself.
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  > It means simply 'to significantly value' Er, not trying to be pedantic but I can't find this definition anywhere. Is that an informal use? I only see references to the condiment or similar to 'greatly enjoy'. Might be one of those cases where using more specific wording would have helped the blog entry.