4 ms·

The real secret to Asian American success was not education

17 points by fmihaila 10y ago

newswriter99 10y ago
Writer says it was due to Americans being less racist towards Asians, but says nothing as to why Americans became less racist. Seems chicken vs. egg to me.
- dbg31415 10y ago
  Read the whole article and came away thinking, "Ok so what was the argument?" Yeah, your comment sums it up perfectly.
- matpru 10y ago
  The author does suggests a possible explanation here: > Hilger found some evidence that there were underlying differences in skill. Between Asians and African Americans with the same amount of schooling, African Americans tended to achieve lower scores on military enlistment tests during the 1940s.
  - newswriter99 10y ago
    But that contradicts his premise.
- trustfundbaby 10y ago
  This very closely related article explains it better why https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/the-real-reason-americans-stopped-spitting-on-asian-americans-and-started-praising-them/?utm_term=.cb4479a6206f https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/the-r...) Those claims really start to stick in the 1940s, when the nation was gearing up for global war. American leaders started to worry about the consequences of their domestic racial discrimination policies. They were concerned it would get in the way of forging alliances with other people abroad. That really motivated American leaders and the American people to work on race relations. During World War II, lawmakers thought that Chinese exclusion made for bad diplomacy. So Congress decided to overturn Chinese exclusion as a goodwill gesture to China, who was America’s Pacific ally. With the beginning of the Cold War, American policymakers became really attentive to putting their best image out into the world. They were very interested in winning hearts and minds in Asia. Japan is a very good example. Japan lost the war and the United States took charge of reconstructing Japan in its own image as a rising democratic, capitalist country. And because Japan became such an important ally, that was the moment when Japanese exclusion laws could finally be overturned, which happened in 1952. Again, people in Congress worried that if we left these laws on the books, it would endanger a billion hearts and minds in the Far East
- neutralid 10y ago
  Author may be somewhat right but probably not in the way intended. Discrimination tends to be more effective in areas that lack competition. The article itself states that Asians started to own more businesses due to discriminatory practices. With discriminatory laws were relaxed, Asians on average may have put themselves in a more competitive position (through education/training) than whites and blacks. So, with increased competition, white executives may have had to pay equal otherwise risk losing an asset to their competition. Consequently, with more competition, Americans may appear to be less racist towards Asians. Discrimination apparently still exists with the disparity in terms of executive positions when comparing equivalent levels of education. There's less competition at the very top where who you know with money likely counts more than technical skill, i.e. paying for CEO's rolodex.
andrewclunn 10y ago
So being forced to open their own businesses due to lack of employment (because of racism) gives credibility to the notion that declining racism is what lead to Asian American upward mobility? I suppose Jewish bankers and merchants, forced into those positions (which were at the time looked down upon) were also beneficiaries of declining racism... This article is a clear example of why so many dismiss the grey sciences as ideology masquerading as science.
sctb 10y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12994291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12994291
rdlecler1 10y ago
I didn't read the original article, but the evidence presented really doesn't support this conclusion: >This dramatic shift had nothing to do with Asians accruing more education. Here's a thought experiment: It's well known that Asians attend university at a higher proportion than any other group. So if society thinks of Asians as smart and hard working then this stereotype, by definition, would logically extend to individual Asians regardless of their actual education level. With the same level of education this would put an Asian at an advantage over someone who is Black because the later would likely face greater discrimination than the former. Similarly, more educated people are less likely to commit violent crimes, and so because a large percentage of the Asian population is highly educated then Asians in general, even those with criminal backgrounds or at-risk backgrounds, would benefit from a positive stereotype of the non-violent Asian. So while there is still discrimination at play it may be that high levels of education in a large proportion of that group could ameleorate negative stereotypes and close the discrimination gap. This is comes back to education and we need to do a much better job with low-income communities who are trapped in both socio-economic a cultural cycle of poverty.
danso 10y ago
People underestimate the power of narrative to shape behavior. I grew up as a child of Vietnam War refugees in a nearly all-white town. My grades and achievement were good but nowhere near valedictorian-level or even enough to get into a good private college. Yet never did I get anything but affirmation on wanting to be an engineer or doctor or lawyer, as that was such an accepted path for Asians. Even though it was immigrant (and relatively established and well off) Chinese and Koreans who built that stereotype, Vietnamese and other Johnny-come-lately Asian groups got to operate under that good-will stereotype. Vietnamese success stories seem common enough now, but I don't think that'd be the case if refugees were treated with the blanket suspicion against Japanese citizens were in WW2, or just about any refugee classified as Latino or Middle-eastern. Reading the OP, I'm struck by how little Asian-American suffering was covered in my school history curriculum. I remember Sacco and Vanzetti clearly, but had never heard of the The Chinese Massacre of 1871. Even the internment of Japanese was a relatively small footnote, mollified by the commendable heroic sacrifice of the Nisei 442nd Regiment. Whenever people complain about blacks or other disenfranchised "loud" groups and point to the shining examples of Asian-American achievement, I can't help but see the power of selection bias and bliss of ignorance. I can't speak for all Asians, but I imagine the narrative that Asians operate under would be much different if the injustice that Asian groups suffered were given more focus. The upshot is that it's pretty nice growing up Asian today, when the suffering and injustice against past Asians is wiped clean. I'm not advocating that the solution is to whitewash history for the other minority groups to reduce their resentment. I just think that it's wrong to think of Asian success as some kind of conscious collective effort to "just work hard and get along" -- as if Asian elders got together and put a vote to it -- rather than a forced consequence of history.
stmfreak 10y ago
If society becoming less racist toward them led to an Asian economic boom, the black community should be rocketing upward any day now. But I suspect rather, this author is confusing cause with effect and attributing success to a change in attitudes toward Asians rather than successful Asians changing attitudes toward Asians.
albertgao 10y ago
Ridiculous, after tons of non relative paragraphs, just one sentence : when white people give you more respect, you will earn more.... Ridiculous

17 points by fmihaila 10y ago

Writer says it was due to Americans being less racist towards Asians, but says nothing as to why Americans became less racist. Seems chicken vs. egg to me.

dbg31415 10y ago
Read the whole article and came away thinking, "Ok so what was the argument?" Yeah, your comment sums it up perfectly.
matpru 10y ago
The author does suggests a possible explanation here: > Hilger found some evidence that there were underlying differences in skill. Between Asians and African Americans with the same amount of schooling, African Americans tended to achieve lower scores on military enlistment tests during the 1940s.
- newswriter99 10y ago
  But that contradicts his premise.
trustfundbaby 10y ago
This very closely related article explains it better why https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/the-real-reason-americans-stopped-spitting-on-asian-americans-and-started-praising-them/?utm_term=.cb4479a6206f https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/the-r...) Those claims really start to stick in the 1940s, when the nation was gearing up for global war. American leaders started to worry about the consequences of their domestic racial discrimination policies. They were concerned it would get in the way of forging alliances with other people abroad. That really motivated American leaders and the American people to work on race relations. During World War II, lawmakers thought that Chinese exclusion made for bad diplomacy. So Congress decided to overturn Chinese exclusion as a goodwill gesture to China, who was America’s Pacific ally. With the beginning of the Cold War, American policymakers became really attentive to putting their best image out into the world. They were very interested in winning hearts and minds in Asia. Japan is a very good example. Japan lost the war and the United States took charge of reconstructing Japan in its own image as a rising democratic, capitalist country. And because Japan became such an important ally, that was the moment when Japanese exclusion laws could finally be overturned, which happened in 1952. Again, people in Congress worried that if we left these laws on the books, it would endanger a billion hearts and minds in the Far East
neutralid 10y ago
Author may be somewhat right but probably not in the way intended. Discrimination tends to be more effective in areas that lack competition. The article itself states that Asians started to own more businesses due to discriminatory practices. With discriminatory laws were relaxed, Asians on average may have put themselves in a more competitive position (through education/training) than whites and blacks. So, with increased competition, white executives may have had to pay equal otherwise risk losing an asset to their competition. Consequently, with more competition, Americans may appear to be less racist towards Asians. Discrimination apparently still exists with the disparity in terms of executive positions when comparing equivalent levels of education. There's less competition at the very top where who you know with money likely counts more than technical skill, i.e. paying for CEO's rolodex.

andrewclunn 10y ago

So being forced to open their own businesses due to lack of employment (because of racism) gives credibility to the notion that declining racism is what lead to Asian American upward mobility? I suppose Jewish bankers and merchants, forced into those positions (which were at the time looked down upon) were also beneficiaries of declining racism... This article is a clear example of why so many dismiss the grey sciences as ideology masquerading as science.

sctb 10y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12994291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12994291

rdlecler1 10y ago

I didn't read the original article, but the evidence presented really doesn't support this conclusion: >This dramatic shift had nothing to do with Asians accruing more education. Here's a thought experiment: It's well known that Asians attend university at a higher proportion than any other group. So if society thinks of Asians as smart and hard working then this stereotype, by definition, would logically extend to individual Asians regardless of their actual education level. With the same level of education this would put an Asian at an advantage over someone who is Black because the later would likely face greater discrimination than the former. Similarly, more educated people are less likely to commit violent crimes, and so because a large percentage of the Asian population is highly educated then Asians in general, even those with criminal backgrounds or at-risk backgrounds, would benefit from a positive stereotype of the non-violent Asian. So while there is still discrimination at play it may be that high levels of education in a large proportion of that group could ameleorate negative stereotypes and close the discrimination gap. This is comes back to education and we need to do a much better job with low-income communities who are trapped in both socio-economic a cultural cycle of poverty.

danso 10y ago

People underestimate the power of narrative to shape behavior. I grew up as a child of Vietnam War refugees in a nearly all-white town. My grades and achievement were good but nowhere near valedictorian-level or even enough to get into a good private college. Yet never did I get anything but affirmation on wanting to be an engineer or doctor or lawyer, as that was such an accepted path for Asians. Even though it was immigrant (and relatively established and well off) Chinese and Koreans who built that stereotype, Vietnamese and other Johnny-come-lately Asian groups got to operate under that good-will stereotype. Vietnamese success stories seem common enough now, but I don't think that'd be the case if refugees were treated with the blanket suspicion against Japanese citizens were in WW2, or just about any refugee classified as Latino or Middle-eastern. Reading the OP, I'm struck by how little Asian-American suffering was covered in my school history curriculum. I remember Sacco and Vanzetti clearly, but had never heard of the The Chinese Massacre of 1871. Even the internment of Japanese was a relatively small footnote, mollified by the commendable heroic sacrifice of the Nisei 442nd Regiment. Whenever people complain about blacks or other disenfranchised "loud" groups and point to the shining examples of Asian-American achievement, I can't help but see the power of selection bias and bliss of ignorance. I can't speak for all Asians, but I imagine the narrative that Asians operate under would be much different if the injustice that Asian groups suffered were given more focus. The upshot is that it's pretty nice growing up Asian today, when the suffering and injustice against past Asians is wiped clean. I'm not advocating that the solution is to whitewash history for the other minority groups to reduce their resentment. I just think that it's wrong to think of Asian success as some kind of conscious collective effort to "just work hard and get along" -- as if Asian elders got together and put a vote to it -- rather than a forced consequence of history.

stmfreak 10y ago

If society becoming less racist toward them led to an Asian economic boom, the black community should be rocketing upward any day now. But I suspect rather, this author is confusing cause with effect and attributing success to a change in attitudes toward Asians rather than successful Asians changing attitudes toward Asians.

albertgao 10y ago

Ridiculous, after tons of non relative paragraphs, just one sentence : when white people give you more respect, you will earn more.... Ridiculous