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> It's not a scam as much as it's a loophole. You surely don't mean that Apple accidentally created a stateless company with no staff and no buildings to swind

by scholia 10y ago

> It's not a scam as much as it's a loophole. You surely don't mean that Apple accidentally created a stateless company with no staff and no buildings to swindle taxpayers out of billions? I'm pretty sure a lot of planning went into it. If it's arguably legal, there's nothing ethical about going out of your way to devise and exploit these "loopholes". Frankly, it's just what you'd expect from a brutal multi-national corporation that mercilessly exploits underpaid Chinese workers, despite having over $200 billion in cash....

dkonofalski 10y ago
I never said that planning didn't go into it nor did I suggest that there was any accident. It's a loophole, though. It's a creative way to use the current, lawful tax codes. Why would a company pay more than what they're legally entitled to pay? That's literally throwing money away. As I said, in my last comment, the loophole should be closed but to suggest that Apple should pay back taxes on it is ridiculous. Edit: I also want to push back on your comment about them exploiting Chinese workers. Apple doesn't exploit the workers, the factory owners do. Apple does everything it can to minimize the exploitation of the workers including random factory audits and employee surveys. No other electronics company in the US does this and, frankly, Apple doesn't have to. They pay someone to make components for them and if the company they pay say that they can make those components, then that's really the end of the story. Apple realizes that Chinese culture and law don't support human rights and well-being so they go above and beyond to try and correct the situation. If they were as monolithic and uncaring as you claim, they wouldn't even do that.
- scholia 10y ago
  You need to do more research. Apple says it does have responsibility for workers in its supply chain, and some of your statements are not factually correct. Here's an example of how Apple actually works. (1) Enough Foxconn workers commit suicide to put pressure on Apple. (2) Foxconn increases pay and improves working conditions. (3) Apple moves some iPhone production from Foxconn to Pegatron, which is cheaper, because Pegatron workers earn less and are treated worse. Apple moved some production from a company that made real efforts to stop child labor (school-children bussed in for "work experience" on production lines) to one where it still goes on. Given that Apple has a $200 billion cash mountain and the workers get peanuts, this is a shitty way to behave. If you want to take the line that Apple can be as unethical as it likes in exploiting Chinese workers and tax loopholes -- because profits -- then I guess you have bigger problems.
  - dkonofalski 10y ago
    Except that's not at all what I said and none of your statements are factually correct. You have no evidence for any of what you just said and ignored evidence that Apple has done more than either company to raise the standards at these factories. They moved production from Foxconn exactly because of these faults. And I never said they can be as unethical as they like either, so I won't be replying further as you can't make your point without being deceptive and straw-manning.
    - scholia 10y ago
      Haha. As I said, you need to do more research. You could start with China Labor Watch. You'd also do better if you approached this with an open mind. > They moved production from Foxconn exactly because of these faults. Love to see your evidence for that, if there is any. > ignored evidence that Apple has done more than either company to raise the standards at these factories Depends how you measure it. Apple makes the most money and, because it needs to maintain a false image, it has the most to lose. However, it's been aware of child labor since 2008, if not earlier. It must also be aware that companies engineer around its guidelines, so they are more of a PR stunt than anything else. A hugely rich company like Apple could certainly make a difference if it were serious. Pity it isn't.
      - dkonofalski 10y ago
        I do approach this with an open mind and I have looked at China Labor Watch extensively. Unfortunately, they're not unbiased either and their "research" has, in the past, included production lines that were not producing Apple products but products of other manufacturers. In addition, even CLW has had to admit that conditions improved drastically for Apple's manufacturing lines due to their random audits. Apple also was the only company to initiate an investigation into Foxconn via the FLA to prevent exactly what you're describing. Again, it's not a magic wand that they can wave and magically remove all child labor. The only thing they can do is contract their suppliers under fair working conditions and audit them to make sure that the contract is keeping their word. Apple doesn't own those factories, they don't hire the employees, and they don't run the lines. They simple order product from these companies under certain conditions (including workers protections) and are promised that those conditions will be met. I don't know what else you expect them to do and I'm curious if you're this vehement about all the other manufacturers that use the same factories and don't make contractual guidelines, don't audit the factories, and don't actively investigate them.

by scholia 10y ago

dkonofalski 10y ago

I never said that planning didn't go into it nor did I suggest that there was any accident. It's a loophole, though. It's a creative way to use the current, lawful tax codes. Why would a company pay more than what they're legally entitled to pay? That's literally throwing money away. As I said, in my last comment, the loophole should be closed but to suggest that Apple should pay back taxes on it is ridiculous. Edit: I also want to push back on your comment about them exploiting Chinese workers. Apple doesn't exploit the workers, the factory owners do. Apple does everything it can to minimize the exploitation of the workers including random factory audits and employee surveys. No other electronics company in the US does this and, frankly, Apple doesn't have to. They pay someone to make components for them and if the company they pay say that they can make those components, then that's really the end of the story. Apple realizes that Chinese culture and law don't support human rights and well-being so they go above and beyond to try and correct the situation. If they were as monolithic and uncaring as you claim, they wouldn't even do that.

scholia 10y ago
You need to do more research. Apple says it does have responsibility for workers in its supply chain, and some of your statements are not factually correct. Here's an example of how Apple actually works. (1) Enough Foxconn workers commit suicide to put pressure on Apple. (2) Foxconn increases pay and improves working conditions. (3) Apple moves some iPhone production from Foxconn to Pegatron, which is cheaper, because Pegatron workers earn less and are treated worse. Apple moved some production from a company that made real efforts to stop child labor (school-children bussed in for "work experience" on production lines) to one where it still goes on. Given that Apple has a $200 billion cash mountain and the workers get peanuts, this is a shitty way to behave. If you want to take the line that Apple can be as unethical as it likes in exploiting Chinese workers and tax loopholes -- because profits -- then I guess you have bigger problems.
- dkonofalski 10y ago
  Except that's not at all what I said and none of your statements are factually correct. You have no evidence for any of what you just said and ignored evidence that Apple has done more than either company to raise the standards at these factories. They moved production from Foxconn exactly because of these faults. And I never said they can be as unethical as they like either, so I won't be replying further as you can't make your point without being deceptive and straw-manning.
  - scholia 10y ago
    Haha. As I said, you need to do more research. You could start with China Labor Watch. You'd also do better if you approached this with an open mind. > They moved production from Foxconn exactly because of these faults. Love to see your evidence for that, if there is any. > ignored evidence that Apple has done more than either company to raise the standards at these factories Depends how you measure it. Apple makes the most money and, because it needs to maintain a false image, it has the most to lose. However, it's been aware of child labor since 2008, if not earlier. It must also be aware that companies engineer around its guidelines, so they are more of a PR stunt than anything else. A hugely rich company like Apple could certainly make a difference if it were serious. Pity it isn't.
    - dkonofalski 10y ago
      I do approach this with an open mind and I have looked at China Labor Watch extensively. Unfortunately, they're not unbiased either and their "research" has, in the past, included production lines that were not producing Apple products but products of other manufacturers. In addition, even CLW has had to admit that conditions improved drastically for Apple's manufacturing lines due to their random audits. Apple also was the only company to initiate an investigation into Foxconn via the FLA to prevent exactly what you're describing. Again, it's not a magic wand that they can wave and magically remove all child labor. The only thing they can do is contract their suppliers under fair working conditions and audit them to make sure that the contract is keeping their word. Apple doesn't own those factories, they don't hire the employees, and they don't run the lines. They simple order product from these companies under certain conditions (including workers protections) and are promised that those conditions will be met. I don't know what else you expect them to do and I'm curious if you're this vehement about all the other manufacturers that use the same factories and don't make contractual guidelines, don't audit the factories, and don't actively investigate them.