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Polarizing question, but I wonder how many people who hold up an Ayn Rand book as a marker for their views have actually read it, and how much they read otherwi

by croon 10y ago

Polarizing question, but I wonder how many people who hold up an Ayn Rand book as a marker for their views have actually read it, and how much they read otherwise. I think it's very rare for people who do read a lot, and read varied to not be "better" off than not reading. Like most I was an idealist in youth, and while I have become more pragmatic, I still try to stoke that fire. I however learned in my 20s to never fear the opposition/unknown, and reading more and challenging views is never dangerous. Sometimes it challenges you to rethink your stance, sometimes it's exposed as ridiculous. My point is that I think it's really hard to "learn garbage" from reading a lot.

klodolph 10y ago
Consider my viewpoint as one in opposition to your own. My personal experience—I've met people who are well read but don't read well, if you know what I mean. People who read Nietzcshe and think that they can get by with less sleep because they're übermensch. Yes, I've actually met two people who have come to that particular conclusion. I imagine that they eventually grew out of it, but was it reading, specifically that caused this, or just the general experience of life (of which reading is one part)? If your attitude is that you are reading to challenge yourself with views that you disagree with, then you are going to find it easier to expand your mind. But that's not why everyone reads, not everything you read will expand your mind, and that kind of attitude will allow you to expand your mind in many other ways as well (besides reading). I'm also not sold on the idea that youth are idealists in some kind of ideological sense. I feel that it comes across that way, but only because as I get older, I am a better judge of how I can actually change the world, and I might as well devote my resources to where I can make the biggest difference. In other words, we may become more or less idealist as we get older, but being pragmatic is literally a skill that requires experience to develop. And if you doubt that you are still idealistic, remember that you are the one arguing that it's hard to "learn garbage" from reading—perhaps an ideological standpoint, from my perspective ;-)
- hliyan 10y ago
  I'd like to think that the ideals/principles of youth and old are the same, except that the old have been patched over the years for real world vulnerabilities.
- croon 10y ago
  I'll gladly consider your viewpoint in opposition to mine, because it would mean that I grew from it, since I agree with a lot of what you're saying as I'm reading it ;) I suppose I can't know how other people are affected by what and how much they read other than from my own experience and empathic hypotheticals. Is it a question of the much talked about view of fixed/growth mindsets? I knew I knew everything at 17, and obviously I was wrong. I grow less knowledgable by the year, while reading more. I'm not saying anything profound here that hasn't been said by Lao Tsu, Einstein, Aristotle, Emerson, etc. Are you suggesting that this is not universal truth but merely true for those eager to learn? I suppose I could surrender that merely picking up a book you on the offset disagree with requires a will to be challenged. And once again, I'm less certain of something than I was going in. Time to rebuild my world view. Thanks.
hliyan 10y ago
OP here. What a coincidence, it's precisely Ayn Rand I'm talking about, and I've read every book of hers except For the New Intellectual (by the time I got around to it, I had thankfully recovered). I even read most of Nathaniel Brandon. Please, don't try this. Ayn Rand has some great ideas, but they make certain assumptions about human nature that are quite simply not true (which is the same problem with capitalism).
- IsaacL 10y ago
  I avoided her for a long time, based on her negative reputation, then finally started reading her books a couple of years ago and was blown away. She's much, much deeper than I'd been led to believe. I always make a point to reply whenever I see her mentioned on HN, because her philosophy helped me out of a very messy series of life crises, and I hope someone else struggling to figure things out sees my comment and is inspired to take a look.
  - dsacco 10y ago
    Can you comment on your thoughts about Objectivism? What is it that appeals to you about Ayn Rand?
    - IsaacL 10y ago
      Fundamentally, I think Objectivism is true, i.e., it is correct on all the essential points. Ayn Rand is a lot deeper than people give her credit for -- much, much deeper than the strawman "capitalism = good, socialism = bad". What sold me was her non-fiction writings on consciousness and epistemology (theory of knowledge). Click around here if you're curious: http://aynrandlexicon.com/book/conceptual.html http://aynrandlexicon.com/book/conceptual.html.
  - cableshaft 10y ago
    If you're talking about a model for how an individual can cultivate a certain attitude pursue achievement and productivity, I'd agree it's a pretty decent one. But as for how the characters behaved and reacted to each other, it seemed too robot-like and lacking empathy that The Fountainhead, for example, literally had me tossing the book across the room multiple times. "Real people don't act like that!" I remembered saying. And that was in high school, when I was Libertarian. I still finished the book though. If someone wants to check her out, I think Anthem is the one to read. You get all of her ideas, pretty much, with the bonus of being able to get through it in a few hours. Her other books are way too long-winded. The Fountainhead, despite being infuriating and having some excessive diatribes, I did think was a good book overall. Personally, of all the high school reading I did, Walden had a much more lasting effect on me than Ayn Rand did.

by croon 10y ago

klodolph 10y ago

Consider my viewpoint as one in opposition to your own. My personal experience—I've met people who are well read but don't read well, if you know what I mean. People who read Nietzcshe and think that they can get by with less sleep because they're übermensch. Yes, I've actually met two people who have come to that particular conclusion. I imagine that they eventually grew out of it, but was it reading, specifically that caused this, or just the general experience of life (of which reading is one part)? If your attitude is that you are reading to challenge yourself with views that you disagree with, then you are going to find it easier to expand your mind. But that's not why everyone reads, not everything you read will expand your mind, and that kind of attitude will allow you to expand your mind in many other ways as well (besides reading). I'm also not sold on the idea that youth are idealists in some kind of ideological sense. I feel that it comes across that way, but only because as I get older, I am a better judge of how I can actually change the world, and I might as well devote my resources to where I can make the biggest difference. In other words, we may become more or less idealist as we get older, but being pragmatic is literally a skill that requires experience to develop. And if you doubt that you are still idealistic, remember that you are the one arguing that it's hard to "learn garbage" from reading—perhaps an ideological standpoint, from my perspective ;-)

hliyan 10y ago
I'd like to think that the ideals/principles of youth and old are the same, except that the old have been patched over the years for real world vulnerabilities.
croon 10y ago
I'll gladly consider your viewpoint in opposition to mine, because it would mean that I grew from it, since I agree with a lot of what you're saying as I'm reading it ;) I suppose I can't know how other people are affected by what and how much they read other than from my own experience and empathic hypotheticals. Is it a question of the much talked about view of fixed/growth mindsets? I knew I knew everything at 17, and obviously I was wrong. I grow less knowledgable by the year, while reading more. I'm not saying anything profound here that hasn't been said by Lao Tsu, Einstein, Aristotle, Emerson, etc. Are you suggesting that this is not universal truth but merely true for those eager to learn? I suppose I could surrender that merely picking up a book you on the offset disagree with requires a will to be challenged. And once again, I'm less certain of something than I was going in. Time to rebuild my world view. Thanks.

hliyan 10y ago

OP here. What a coincidence, it's precisely Ayn Rand I'm talking about, and I've read every book of hers except For the New Intellectual (by the time I got around to it, I had thankfully recovered). I even read most of Nathaniel Brandon. Please, don't try this. Ayn Rand has some great ideas, but they make certain assumptions about human nature that are quite simply not true (which is the same problem with capitalism).

IsaacL 10y ago
I avoided her for a long time, based on her negative reputation, then finally started reading her books a couple of years ago and was blown away. She's much, much deeper than I'd been led to believe. I always make a point to reply whenever I see her mentioned on HN, because her philosophy helped me out of a very messy series of life crises, and I hope someone else struggling to figure things out sees my comment and is inspired to take a look.
- dsacco 10y ago
  Can you comment on your thoughts about Objectivism? What is it that appeals to you about Ayn Rand?
  - IsaacL 10y ago
    Fundamentally, I think Objectivism is true, i.e., it is correct on all the essential points. Ayn Rand is a lot deeper than people give her credit for -- much, much deeper than the strawman "capitalism = good, socialism = bad". What sold me was her non-fiction writings on consciousness and epistemology (theory of knowledge). Click around here if you're curious: http://aynrandlexicon.com/book/conceptual.html http://aynrandlexicon.com/book/conceptual.html.
- cableshaft 10y ago
  If you're talking about a model for how an individual can cultivate a certain attitude pursue achievement and productivity, I'd agree it's a pretty decent one. But as for how the characters behaved and reacted to each other, it seemed too robot-like and lacking empathy that The Fountainhead, for example, literally had me tossing the book across the room multiple times. "Real people don't act like that!" I remembered saying. And that was in high school, when I was Libertarian. I still finished the book though. If someone wants to check her out, I think Anthem is the one to read. You get all of her ideas, pretty much, with the bonus of being able to get through it in a few hours. Her other books are way too long-winded. The Fountainhead, despite being infuriating and having some excessive diatribes, I did think was a good book overall. Personally, of all the high school reading I did, Walden had a much more lasting effect on me than Ayn Rand did.