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This attitude is why more people are not software developers- far worse than pissing of you and your elitist friends. Bootstrap's 'one-line-of-code-and-go' sim

This attitude is why more people are not software developers- far worse than pissing of you and your elitist friends. Bootstrap's 'one-line-of-code-and-go' simplicity enabled me to make my first websites with no IT education on library computer in rural Australia [we didn't have one at home]. Today, I write code for a SF-based unicorn and whilst I don't use Bootstrap at work, I attribute my career to that CSS framework. 'Easier' tools enable more people to make use mankind's collective knowledge and change their lives for the better; I don't give a fuck if you're happy about it.

jlg23 10y ago
> Easier' tools enable more people to make use mankind's collective knowledge and change their lives for the better Agreed, but also please let someone who has done this for more than 20 years differentiate between essentially irrelevant time savers and actual progress. Saving 20 seconds because you don't have to "download a library" is irrelevant for me, saving 20 days because my compiler can do at least basic sanity checks on my SQL-stmt against the DB-schema and tell me when I am wrong is something I consider relevant. And I will have this written on my grave if I have to: If automating a fscking download is something you have to think about, please don't get into programming. If this is elitism (btw, don't you ever dare to insult my friends when trying to make a point, you just disqualify yourself), then I love elitism. I'm sure you'd not want you heart surgeon having to thing about in which direction blood flows - some things are just essential knowledge....
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  Since you mentioned the high status profession of surgeons. Surgeons regularly amputate the wrong leg or similar level blunders while nurses in the room know they are making a mistake. When they investigate these issues and why the right thing wasn't done, elitism is a prime culprit. But they don't always investigate, and elitism is a prime reason for that too, as who wants to blame surgeons for making stupid mistakes? When the airline industry made a major effort to improve safety elitism was something they explicitly challenged. Just something to think about.
  - jlg23 10y ago
    > [surgeons regularly make mistakes the nurses know about] I did neither claim otherwise nor did I say I'd not challenge an incompetent surgeon (and yes, I have medical experts in my family, so I actually do make sure incompetent medical staff is let go). And yes, I actually do expect a heart surgeon to know in which direction flows blood where. > When the airline industry made a major effort to improve safety elitism was something they explicitly challenged. You are referring to the encouragement given to copilots to openly challenge the pilots. All good, I am all for it. But talking BS to a pilot will not improve anything for safety (or the career of the copilot). And that has nothing to do with elitism. > Just something to think about. Done. And BS is still BS and lame excuses are still lame excuses. PS: You dragging deficits on an organizational level in modern patient care into a discussion about basic operation procedures is an insult to medical stuff - because they do know about those problems (nurses and surgeons alike) but can only fight them for so much until they lose their job. Welcome to privatized healthcare.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  You don't "download a library" with popular bootstrap alternatives. You look and see - "oh, this requires sass. sass requires some libs, or npm, or something else. Now I need to know how to go install those (assuming I'm on a machine I can install software on right now), then make sure it's all downloaded and installed correctly (because there are multiple ways to install it 'wrong'), then learn how to use those tools, then learn how to use them well enough to make something decent, the learn how to bundle/deploy that to my website." You're not saving anywhere near "20 seconds" using bootstrap CDN vs the alternatives (and frankly, not even using bootstrap itself, if you pull it down and configure and compile all its options as well). You're saving hours or days of learning up front, and focusing on getting something basic up and running, then determining what style/ui changes are required later. But keep making the false comparison between "downloading" vs "learning portion of multiple ecosystem and technologies" - you're coming across as quite learned here.

jlg23 10y ago

> Easier' tools enable more people to make use mankind's collective knowledge and change their lives for the better Agreed, but also please let someone who has done this for more than 20 years differentiate between essentially irrelevant time savers and actual progress. Saving 20 seconds because you don't have to "download a library" is irrelevant for me, saving 20 days because my compiler can do at least basic sanity checks on my SQL-stmt against the DB-schema and tell me when I am wrong is something I consider relevant. And I will have this written on my grave if I have to: If automating a fscking download is something you have to think about, please don't get into programming. If this is elitism (btw, don't you ever dare to insult my friends when trying to make a point, you just disqualify yourself), then I love elitism. I'm sure you'd not want you heart surgeon having to thing about in which direction blood flows - some things are just essential knowledge....

ZeroGravitas 10y ago
Since you mentioned the high status profession of surgeons. Surgeons regularly amputate the wrong leg or similar level blunders while nurses in the room know they are making a mistake. When they investigate these issues and why the right thing wasn't done, elitism is a prime culprit. But they don't always investigate, and elitism is a prime reason for that too, as who wants to blame surgeons for making stupid mistakes? When the airline industry made a major effort to improve safety elitism was something they explicitly challenged. Just something to think about.
- jlg23 10y ago
  > [surgeons regularly make mistakes the nurses know about] I did neither claim otherwise nor did I say I'd not challenge an incompetent surgeon (and yes, I have medical experts in my family, so I actually do make sure incompetent medical staff is let go). And yes, I actually do expect a heart surgeon to know in which direction flows blood where. > When the airline industry made a major effort to improve safety elitism was something they explicitly challenged. You are referring to the encouragement given to copilots to openly challenge the pilots. All good, I am all for it. But talking BS to a pilot will not improve anything for safety (or the career of the copilot). And that has nothing to do with elitism. > Just something to think about. Done. And BS is still BS and lame excuses are still lame excuses. PS: You dragging deficits on an organizational level in modern patient care into a discussion about basic operation procedures is an insult to medical stuff - because they do know about those problems (nurses and surgeons alike) but can only fight them for so much until they lose their job. Welcome to privatized healthcare.
mgkimsal 10y ago
You don't "download a library" with popular bootstrap alternatives. You look and see - "oh, this requires sass. sass requires some libs, or npm, or something else. Now I need to know how to go install those (assuming I'm on a machine I can install software on right now), then make sure it's all downloaded and installed correctly (because there are multiple ways to install it 'wrong'), then learn how to use those tools, then learn how to use them well enough to make something decent, the learn how to bundle/deploy that to my website." You're not saving anywhere near "20 seconds" using bootstrap CDN vs the alternatives (and frankly, not even using bootstrap itself, if you pull it down and configure and compile all its options as well). You're saving hours or days of learning up front, and focusing on getting something basic up and running, then determining what style/ui changes are required later. But keep making the false comparison between "downloading" vs "learning portion of multiple ecosystem and technologies" - you're coming across as quite learned here.