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These blind tests, again and again, conclusively prove that those listening to the music cannot tell a Yamaha from a Strad. They'll describe the Yamaha in glowi

These blind tests, again and again, conclusively prove that those listening to the music cannot tell a Yamaha from a Strad. They'll describe the Yamaha in glowing terms until they realize it's a violin made last year, then immediately shit all over it. It's like wine people who are easily duped by a fancy looking bottle. A true sommelier can identify different wines by taste alone, but for every one of those there's a dozen frauds who pretend they know what they're doing, just parroting stuff they've memorized. The other troubling thing is the gender of performers is very hard to discern from a blind performance, but when the performer is visible the judges skew very heavily towards men. It's absurd. https://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2013/oct/14/blind-auditions-orchestras-gender-bias https://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2013/oct/14/...

ENTP 10y ago
"A true sommelier can identify different wines by taste alone, but for every one of those there's a dozen frauds who pretend they know what they're doing, just parroting stuff they've memorized." Funnily enough, these are my exact thoughts on the state of the software industry and trying to hire good people.
beat 10y ago
Listening is different from playing. Or perhaps more precisely, the experience of passively listening is different from the experience of actively listening to the instrument you're creating music on. As a guitarist, I do a lot of experimentation with picks. I can easily tell the difference between different kinds of picks by sound when I'm playing. But I can listen to old recordings of myself where I couldn't even tell you which guitar I played! Interestingly, a drummer I play with regularly can usually tell when I've switched picks, and has opinions about what picks I should be using. Such is the closeness of musicians working together. Any of these A/B blind test experiments strongly need to be live. A recording isn't a measure of a violin... it's a measure of the violin, the microphone, the mixing board, the mastering process, the amplifier, and the speaker.
- scott_s 10y ago
  The tests are live. The researchers have really bent over backwards to create fair tests, I think. Someone else in this thread linked to a good summary: http://www.thestrad.com/blind-tested-soloists-unable-to-tell-stradivarius-violins-from-modern-instruments/ http://www.thestrad.com/blind-tested-soloists-unable-to-tell...
  - edbaskerville 10y ago
    In case you read this thread without clicking the link: astrodust's comment might lead you to believe that professional violinists can't tell the difference between factory-made Yamaha instruments and a Strad. The instruments in this test are not factory-made Yamahas. They're hand-crafted instruments made by top masters. In other words, the best instruments now are finally catching up to the best instruments of a few hundred years ago. As for casual listeners, I'd believe that some of them can't tell the difference between a Yamaha and a Strad. But professional violinists absolutely can--both when playing and listening.
    - astrodust 10y ago
      Blind tests seem to disagree. New but very high quality instruments vs. those considered exceptional and unmatched.
- yoodenvranx 10y ago
  > I can easily tell the difference between different kinds of picks by sound when I'm playing Are you sure? Since you always k ow which pick you are using it's easy for your brain to fool yourself.
  - beat 10y ago
    Oh, I'm quite sure. There are limits to the human ability to discern and judge - see the discussion of blind violin comparison. But they didn't sound the same... they just didn't always have the expected results for "best". You might have difficulty discerning between, say, Hawaiian and Columbian coffee, but you can easily discern the difference between coffee and lemonade. Except under the influence of certain medications... The point I'm making, though, is that discernment is situational. It depends on experience with the subject matter, and whether it's direct or indirect. I can easily hear the difference between two guitar picks and make value judgments - IF I'm the one playing. My drummer can tell if I switch picks, because he knows my sound so well, but he couldn't tell you which one is which. Most people could never hear the difference. When I'm playing a guitar, I can discern tiny things like moving the volume knob 10%. But two years later, listening to a recording, I couldn't even tell you which of my guitars I was playing. It's very situational.
koolba 10y ago
> It's like wine people who are easily duped by a fancy looking bottle. A true sommelier can identify different wines by taste alone, but for every one of those there's a dozen frauds who pretend they know what they're doing, just parroting stuff they've memorized. I think you're off by at least one, possibly two, orders of magnitude on the relative number of fraudsters.
jwatte 10y ago
Yes! I used "the brain" as a kinder synonym for "placebo effect."
graycat 10y ago
Warning: Joke intended! > A true sommelier can identify different wines by taste alone Well, for Chardonnay, if (1) it is dry (low sugar) and crisp (high acid) with delicate flavors, then it's from near Macon, France and maybe Pouilly Fuisse or even Montrachet. If (2) it is sweet (high sugar), flat (low acid), with the many flavors of, say, canned fruit cocktail, then it's from California! Really, this was my summary opinion from wine investigations some years ago, but I haven't had any Chardonnay in years; maybe California does better now!

ENTP 10y ago

"A true sommelier can identify different wines by taste alone, but for every one of those there's a dozen frauds who pretend they know what they're doing, just parroting stuff they've memorized." Funnily enough, these are my exact thoughts on the state of the software industry and trying to hire good people.

beat 10y ago

Listening is different from playing. Or perhaps more precisely, the experience of passively listening is different from the experience of actively listening to the instrument you're creating music on. As a guitarist, I do a lot of experimentation with picks. I can easily tell the difference between different kinds of picks by sound when I'm playing. But I can listen to old recordings of myself where I couldn't even tell you which guitar I played! Interestingly, a drummer I play with regularly can usually tell when I've switched picks, and has opinions about what picks I should be using. Such is the closeness of musicians working together. Any of these A/B blind test experiments strongly need to be live. A recording isn't a measure of a violin... it's a measure of the violin, the microphone, the mixing board, the mastering process, the amplifier, and the speaker.

scott_s 10y ago
The tests are live. The researchers have really bent over backwards to create fair tests, I think. Someone else in this thread linked to a good summary: http://www.thestrad.com/blind-tested-soloists-unable-to-tell-stradivarius-violins-from-modern-instruments/ http://www.thestrad.com/blind-tested-soloists-unable-to-tell...
- edbaskerville 10y ago
  In case you read this thread without clicking the link: astrodust's comment might lead you to believe that professional violinists can't tell the difference between factory-made Yamaha instruments and a Strad. The instruments in this test are not factory-made Yamahas. They're hand-crafted instruments made by top masters. In other words, the best instruments now are finally catching up to the best instruments of a few hundred years ago. As for casual listeners, I'd believe that some of them can't tell the difference between a Yamaha and a Strad. But professional violinists absolutely can--both when playing and listening.
  - astrodust 10y ago
    Blind tests seem to disagree. New but very high quality instruments vs. those considered exceptional and unmatched.
yoodenvranx 10y ago
> I can easily tell the difference between different kinds of picks by sound when I'm playing Are you sure? Since you always k ow which pick you are using it's easy for your brain to fool yourself.
- beat 10y ago
  Oh, I'm quite sure. There are limits to the human ability to discern and judge - see the discussion of blind violin comparison. But they didn't sound the same... they just didn't always have the expected results for "best". You might have difficulty discerning between, say, Hawaiian and Columbian coffee, but you can easily discern the difference between coffee and lemonade. Except under the influence of certain medications... The point I'm making, though, is that discernment is situational. It depends on experience with the subject matter, and whether it's direct or indirect. I can easily hear the difference between two guitar picks and make value judgments - IF I'm the one playing. My drummer can tell if I switch picks, because he knows my sound so well, but he couldn't tell you which one is which. Most people could never hear the difference. When I'm playing a guitar, I can discern tiny things like moving the volume knob 10%. But two years later, listening to a recording, I couldn't even tell you which of my guitars I was playing. It's very situational.

koolba 10y ago

> It's like wine people who are easily duped by a fancy looking bottle. A true sommelier can identify different wines by taste alone, but for every one of those there's a dozen frauds who pretend they know what they're doing, just parroting stuff they've memorized. I think you're off by at least one, possibly two, orders of magnitude on the relative number of fraudsters.

jwatte 10y ago

Yes! I used "the brain" as a kinder synonym for "placebo effect."

graycat 10y ago

Warning: Joke intended! > A true sommelier can identify different wines by taste alone Well, for Chardonnay, if (1) it is dry (low sugar) and crisp (high acid) with delicate flavors, then it's from near Macon, France and maybe Pouilly Fuisse or even Montrachet. If (2) it is sweet (high sugar), flat (low acid), with the many flavors of, say, canned fruit cocktail, then it's from California! Really, this was my summary opinion from wine investigations some years ago, but I haven't had any Chardonnay in years; maybe California does better now!