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As a follow-up to what you're saying: Was Jesus a real person existed, likely. Agreed Did he rise from the dead, no. Disagree. If (and notice I'm usin

by milesf 10y ago

As a follow-up to what you're saying: Was Jesus a real person existed, likely. Agreed Did he rise from the dead, no. Disagree. If (and notice I'm using the 'if' proposition) there is a God, who created everything, it would be trivial for Him to raise Himself from the dead. Like I mentioned before, if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is moot and should not be followed. This is the singular point in human history that has a binary answer with eternal implications. Was his message misunderstood, yes. Agreed. In fact there are many other christs and gospels (2 Corinthians 11:4). No one counterfeits worthless things, but if (there's that 'if' proposition again) Jesus is who He claimed to be, then what He offers is the most valuable thing in all of human history: Eternal life. Immortality. To be in God's Family and be owners of _everything_, not just all the stuff on earth, but everything in the universe. Part of Jesus his message was, it is not about what you do, but why you do it. It is about your heart. Agreed. Amen. An eternity in heaven or hell are exactly the wrong motivation. Food for thought. I'll need to chew on this one for a bit. I think Jesus meant humanity can go much further if we all follow the golden rule, and are less biased towards foreigners and outcasts. More grace more forgiveness, less judgement. When two or more people cooperate in that way, they can do more. Agreed, although this is generally covered in the Old Testament as well. The problem is not should people get along, but the problem is _why_ people don't get along. The Bible calls this thing 'sin'. We all sin. The proof is in the fact that even if you are not a Christian, we all have things we believe to be right and wrong. And yet, we still choose to do things that we know are wrong! Jesus died for our sins, and He gives us power to live new lives in freedom. That is the holy spirit, not some supernatural force. Disagree. The Holy Spirit is a person, just as Jesus is a person and the Father are a person. Three persons, one God. Do I understand that? No. Can I apprehend it? Yes. And that will bring the "kingdom of heaven" here on earth. It might not feel like it, but we are getting closer to that. How many lepers did god heal? 50 total? Science has healed 5 million. You forget one glaring fact: 100% of those lepers 'healed' by science all die. In fact at some point, all human life will die. Then what? What's the point? Just keep asking yourself that question "then what". You are born. Then what? You go to school. Then what? You get a job Then what? You (get married | stay single | become successful | etc) Then what? You get old. Then what? You die. Then what? Then what? No, seriously, then what? My atheist friends say "nothing, you just cease to exist". Okay, so why bother? Before I am born I am insignificant, and after I die I am insignificant, but somehow between life and death I have significance?! The Bible talks about our lives as being a vapour (James 4:14). When you made your tea/coffee this morning, and a vapour 'birthed' from the surface, rose up then disappeared, was that event significant? Without meaning and significance life is a cruel joke! It is absurd! You may have superficial meaning between birth and death, but _ultimate_ meaning? No. Been there, done that. Just keep asking yourself those two words "then what" and you'll reach the end of yourself and your reasoning in complete despair. But there is hope. To know Jesus, personally! I do! I know you probably don't believe me, but it's because He lives I can face tomorrow. Because He lives all fear is gone. And I know He holds the future, and life is worth the living just because He lives. If Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead, then my hope dies too. The great mathematician Blaise Pascal condensed it into a simple wager: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

ozy 10y ago
"God [..] it would be trivial for Him to raise Himself from the dead" It would. But maybe he is crying for humanity as we slowly start yet another religion, costing us yet another two centuries to recover from. Why would a god even need a sacrifice? A very human notion I think. "although this is generally covered in the Old Testament as well" Jesus said pretty much the same thing, he says the golden rule is what the law of moses comes down to. But you don't have to look far to see that that is a bit too generous. I mean, stoning a woman if she is not a virgin at her wedding night? Stoning homosexuals? Allowing slaves? There is some horrible bronze age thinking codified in the old testament. Not to speak of the genocide and promise of more genocide in the future when Israel will rule and drink the blood of its enemies. "The Holy Spirit is a person" I would like to meet that person. Or watch him/her give a presentation on youtube. But I suppose you mean he is not flesh and blood, so not an actual person. Around 1900 there were many claiming to have an (heavier than air) airplane. You proof that by inviting the media and flying one. Not by handwaving or reasoning. "Jesus died for our sins, and He gives us power to live new lives in freedom." How? I mean that literally. How does he deliver you from sin? You mean here on earth? Or only in heaven? If it has an impact here on earth, then isn't that just an idea that delivers you from sin? The idea that you can be forgiven, and that others will forgive you? Just because we sin sometimes, doesn't make us sinners. If that were true, than doing good sometimes would make us all saints. It is a mix of both at the same time. And we can be forgiven, by others and by ourselves. Start over, learn, try to do better. "Without meaning and significance life is a cruel joke!" I understand the sentiment. But it is not about the destination, it is about the journey, it is about who you meet, what you learn, what you teach. We are connected to so many people, and in our connectedness, we are more then the sum of our individuality. Some people are born in poverty, suffer for lack of food and health, and maybe abusive people around them. Their lives are short and brutal, like so many lives in the past. Will there be some cosmic justice? It is a nice idea but it is unlikely. The only faint flicker of hope is that they have ceased to exist, that their suffering is now over. We should take their lives to heart, make sure it happens the least amount of times possible. By living the way Jesus told us, not because something supernatural exists, not because then you go to heaven, but because that ends cruel joke of life, and turns it into something worth living. As to Pascals wager, he was a mathematician, and the chance is good he is spending eternity in hell. Around 2 against 1. Just not the christian hell, but the hell of any of the other religions. Or maybe he is now in heaven, but it is hell to him, because by believing he signed his life away in the service of god and his army. And god is indeed this cruel dictator, the North Korea of the heavenly realms. An ending that fits the old testament much better ... a cruel joke indeed. And that brings us full circle. How can you know the difference between bronze age thinking, dictatorial propaganda, or a loving god?

by milesf 10y ago

ozy 10y ago

"God [..] it would be trivial for Him to raise Himself from the dead" It would. But maybe he is crying for humanity as we slowly start yet another religion, costing us yet another two centuries to recover from. Why would a god even need a sacrifice? A very human notion I think. "although this is generally covered in the Old Testament as well" Jesus said pretty much the same thing, he says the golden rule is what the law of moses comes down to. But you don't have to look far to see that that is a bit too generous. I mean, stoning a woman if she is not a virgin at her wedding night? Stoning homosexuals? Allowing slaves? There is some horrible bronze age thinking codified in the old testament. Not to speak of the genocide and promise of more genocide in the future when Israel will rule and drink the blood of its enemies. "The Holy Spirit is a person" I would like to meet that person. Or watch him/her give a presentation on youtube. But I suppose you mean he is not flesh and blood, so not an actual person. Around 1900 there were many claiming to have an (heavier than air) airplane. You proof that by inviting the media and flying one. Not by handwaving or reasoning. "Jesus died for our sins, and He gives us power to live new lives in freedom." How? I mean that literally. How does he deliver you from sin? You mean here on earth? Or only in heaven? If it has an impact here on earth, then isn't that just an idea that delivers you from sin? The idea that you can be forgiven, and that others will forgive you? Just because we sin sometimes, doesn't make us sinners. If that were true, than doing good sometimes would make us all saints. It is a mix of both at the same time. And we can be forgiven, by others and by ourselves. Start over, learn, try to do better. "Without meaning and significance life is a cruel joke!" I understand the sentiment. But it is not about the destination, it is about the journey, it is about who you meet, what you learn, what you teach. We are connected to so many people, and in our connectedness, we are more then the sum of our individuality. Some people are born in poverty, suffer for lack of food and health, and maybe abusive people around them. Their lives are short and brutal, like so many lives in the past. Will there be some cosmic justice? It is a nice idea but it is unlikely. The only faint flicker of hope is that they have ceased to exist, that their suffering is now over. We should take their lives to heart, make sure it happens the least amount of times possible. By living the way Jesus told us, not because something supernatural exists, not because then you go to heaven, but because that ends cruel joke of life, and turns it into something worth living. As to Pascals wager, he was a mathematician, and the chance is good he is spending eternity in hell. Around 2 against 1. Just not the christian hell, but the hell of any of the other religions. Or maybe he is now in heaven, but it is hell to him, because by believing he signed his life away in the service of god and his army. And god is indeed this cruel dictator, the North Korea of the heavenly realms. An ending that fits the old testament much better ... a cruel joke indeed. And that brings us full circle. How can you know the difference between bronze age thinking, dictatorial propaganda, or a loving god?