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I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. If you're heads-down on a project and it's not contributing to the value of the product, there are other issues wi

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. If you're heads-down on a project and it's not contributing to the value of the product, there are other issues with your business than remote-v-office culture. If pivoting your engineering goals requires hallway conversations, there's something wrong. To be sure, not everyone is cut out for remote work, the same way not everyone is cut out for office work. For my part, I can't fathom going back to regular office work. I found I was frequently disrupted by hallway conversations and "just want to bounce this off you" pivots and were nothing but frustrating. To say nothing about the fact that my commute time now hang out with my family time.

discordianfish 10y ago
> If pivoting your engineering goals requires hallway conversations, there's something wrong. I agree but isn't there always something wrong? I'm in that spot, I worked mostly remote for the past 4 years and at every company it would have helped a lot to have a casual hallway conversation from time to time. It shouldn't be necessary but in reality it often is. It seem to me like you need well thought out, light weight processes to make this work. I think it should work, but I never saw it working myself..
- secstate 10y ago
  That's a fair point. But in my limited sample size, there are plenty of companies that at least for a few years function just fine with full remote.
- elif 10y ago
  Do none of those companies utilize chat? My experience with "open office" arrangements is that most of the conversation (important and casual) takes place in chats anyway--even between people sitting right next to eachother--because generally people don't want to distract uninvolved parties.
  - gtaylor 10y ago
    > Do none of those companies utilize chat? Sure they do. But you're going to miss adhoc conversations that people in the same physical location have. Remote people aren't left out on purpose, but many times this chatter doesn't warrant saying "Hold on, let's not talk to each other's faces. Better do this on Slack.". Source: Worked remote for about four years, really missed these kinds of random chatter.
    - __derek__ 10y ago
      This seems like it all comes down to the remote-first vs. remote-friendly divide.[1] [1] My favorite post on the subject is Holman's: https://zachholman.com/posts/remote-first/ https://zachholman.com/posts/remote-first/
      - gtaylor 10y ago
        Not ever saying a word in the office is just not realistic. You don't leave people out intentionally, but conversations happen organically sometimes. Maybe you're in the kitchen grabbing a poptart and start talking shop with someone who walks in. There are tradeoffs inherent in every working situation. This is one that really bothered me. It doesn't bother everyone, though.
        geoka9 10y ago
        > Maybe you're in the kitchen grabbing a poptart and start talking shop with someone who walks in. I find that most talks like that are just shooting the breeze. _Some_ of them are useful and in my experience it's usually then they happen rarely. So I think it is beneficial for the team to get together once in a while, but working like that should not be mandatory and you should just let people go back to their preferred routines ASAP. UPDATE: And yes, make sure the culture is "remote-friendly" ("remote-first") even if most of your workers spend most of their working time in the office, otherwise it's not going to work (and I'd argue that this is a good approach even if you don't have any remote workers, but that's for another post).
  - 10y ago
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y ago
  How does text chat or video conference not fix that issue? Look at all these open source projects that manage to flourish across languages, time zones, etc.
  - sangnoir 10y ago
    I have a feeling open source projects flourish in spite of their distributed contributors. Text chat is a poor replacement to in-person conversation as it is occasionally async and a lot of meaning is lost. Video conference is better, but is less spontaneous and makes it harder to pull someone else into the conversation. Above all, text and video eliminate serendipity - I won't overhear the the conversation my colleagues are having about a pain-point I solved 2 days ago. I don't think channels on slack can ever replace this for me - following a text discussion takes my full attention, unlike people talking within earshot.
    - dasmoth 10y ago
      I realise that async communication isn't for everyone, but personally I'd pick it every time. Discussions where people get some time to think over and edit their replies are so much more enjoyable.
    - jsjohnst 10y ago
      I'm the exact opposite, a text discussion I can trivially multitask with other things, but come up and talk to me and not only can I only focus on you, but anything I was thinking about before is likely wiped out too.
    - babyrainbow 10y ago
      >I won't overhear the the conversation my colleagues are having about a pain-point I solved 2 days ago. That is ridiculous. If you solved something like that, post it on some channel everyone is subscribed to, instead of trying to "overhear" problems people are having, not to mention you are willing to be distracted perpetually, listening for problems your colleagues might have...ridiculous.
- wott 10y ago
  > I'm in that spot, I worked mostly remote for the past 4 years and at every company it would have helped a lot to have a casual hallway conversation from time to time. I have never seen hallway conversations helping. Face to face, desk to desk conversations do indeed help, sometimes. In my case, according to my estimations, the time lost by not having those conversations (about 30-60 minutes per week) is very small compared to the time lost in: office distraction, office small talk, commuting(!), all the untold stuff you have to do to get ready for the office, nervous energy lost in all these, which easily sum up to 3-4 hours per day! So I can use part of the extra, say, 16 hours per week (that's like 2 work days!) that are free, to write detailed chats, e-mail, and pick up the phone.
  - geoka9 10y ago
    > to the time lost in: office distraction, office small talk, commuting(!), all the untold stuff you have to do to get ready for the office, nervous energy lost in all these Totally. Not to mention people getting sick during the flu season just because they can't work remotely due to the company policy.

discordianfish 10y ago

> If pivoting your engineering goals requires hallway conversations, there's something wrong. I agree but isn't there always something wrong? I'm in that spot, I worked mostly remote for the past 4 years and at every company it would have helped a lot to have a casual hallway conversation from time to time. It shouldn't be necessary but in reality it often is. It seem to me like you need well thought out, light weight processes to make this work. I think it should work, but I never saw it working myself..

secstate 10y ago
That's a fair point. But in my limited sample size, there are plenty of companies that at least for a few years function just fine with full remote.
elif 10y ago
Do none of those companies utilize chat? My experience with "open office" arrangements is that most of the conversation (important and casual) takes place in chats anyway--even between people sitting right next to eachother--because generally people don't want to distract uninvolved parties.
- gtaylor 10y ago
  > Do none of those companies utilize chat? Sure they do. But you're going to miss adhoc conversations that people in the same physical location have. Remote people aren't left out on purpose, but many times this chatter doesn't warrant saying "Hold on, let's not talk to each other's faces. Better do this on Slack.". Source: Worked remote for about four years, really missed these kinds of random chatter.
  - __derek__ 10y ago
    This seems like it all comes down to the remote-first vs. remote-friendly divide.[1] [1] My favorite post on the subject is Holman's: https://zachholman.com/posts/remote-first/ https://zachholman.com/posts/remote-first/
    - gtaylor 10y ago
      Not ever saying a word in the office is just not realistic. You don't leave people out intentionally, but conversations happen organically sometimes. Maybe you're in the kitchen grabbing a poptart and start talking shop with someone who walks in. There are tradeoffs inherent in every working situation. This is one that really bothered me. It doesn't bother everyone, though.
      - geoka9 10y ago
        > Maybe you're in the kitchen grabbing a poptart and start talking shop with someone who walks in. I find that most talks like that are just shooting the breeze. _Some_ of them are useful and in my experience it's usually then they happen rarely. So I think it is beneficial for the team to get together once in a while, but working like that should not be mandatory and you should just let people go back to their preferred routines ASAP. UPDATE: And yes, make sure the culture is "remote-friendly" ("remote-first") even if most of your workers spend most of their working time in the office, otherwise it's not going to work (and I'd argue that this is a good approach even if you don't have any remote workers, but that's for another post).
- 10y ago
eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y ago
How does text chat or video conference not fix that issue? Look at all these open source projects that manage to flourish across languages, time zones, etc.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  I have a feeling open source projects flourish in spite of their distributed contributors. Text chat is a poor replacement to in-person conversation as it is occasionally async and a lot of meaning is lost. Video conference is better, but is less spontaneous and makes it harder to pull someone else into the conversation. Above all, text and video eliminate serendipity - I won't overhear the the conversation my colleagues are having about a pain-point I solved 2 days ago. I don't think channels on slack can ever replace this for me - following a text discussion takes my full attention, unlike people talking within earshot.
  - dasmoth 10y ago
    I realise that async communication isn't for everyone, but personally I'd pick it every time. Discussions where people get some time to think over and edit their replies are so much more enjoyable.
  - jsjohnst 10y ago
    I'm the exact opposite, a text discussion I can trivially multitask with other things, but come up and talk to me and not only can I only focus on you, but anything I was thinking about before is likely wiped out too.
  - babyrainbow 10y ago
    >I won't overhear the the conversation my colleagues are having about a pain-point I solved 2 days ago. That is ridiculous. If you solved something like that, post it on some channel everyone is subscribed to, instead of trying to "overhear" problems people are having, not to mention you are willing to be distracted perpetually, listening for problems your colleagues might have...ridiculous.
wott 10y ago
> I'm in that spot, I worked mostly remote for the past 4 years and at every company it would have helped a lot to have a casual hallway conversation from time to time. I have never seen hallway conversations helping. Face to face, desk to desk conversations do indeed help, sometimes. In my case, according to my estimations, the time lost by not having those conversations (about 30-60 minutes per week) is very small compared to the time lost in: office distraction, office small talk, commuting(!), all the untold stuff you have to do to get ready for the office, nervous energy lost in all these, which easily sum up to 3-4 hours per day! So I can use part of the extra, say, 16 hours per week (that's like 2 work days!) that are free, to write detailed chats, e-mail, and pick up the phone.
- geoka9 10y ago
  > to the time lost in: office distraction, office small talk, commuting(!), all the untold stuff you have to do to get ready for the office, nervous energy lost in all these Totally. Not to mention people getting sick during the flu season just because they can't work remotely due to the company policy.