4 ms·

This is not about Irish law, but EU law. Ireland has to follow EU laws because the EU says so, not Irish laws.

Retric 10y ago
No, Ireland is still a country it has to follow EU laws because Ireland law says so. They could leave the EU at any time with a single change to their laws. Brexit is going to take time for various reasons, but legally they could have left the next day.
- jdmichal 10y ago
  Specifically, it takes time to wind it down in a way that does not damage both parties. As you said, Brexit could have happened 100% in a day, but then trade and movement would likely be negatively effected until new deals were worked out. Much better for everyone involved to work out those new deals first, then execute the exit.
- akvadrako 10y ago
  A country cannot make a law that it's part of the EU and expect the rest of the world to accept it. The EU has to agree and can stipulate the conditions, like following the EU laws. I did not say Ireland needs to follow EU laws if it leaves the EU, but that isn't relevant.
  - jholman 10y ago
    Yeah, that's all clear. But notice this sequence: Retric > Ireland also has a law on the books saying it must comply with the EU. akvadrako > Ireland has to follow EU laws because the EU says so Retric > No, Ireland ... has to follow EU laws because Ireland law says so My (modest) understanding of treaty law is that Retric is right, that the laws that require Ireland to obey EU rulings are Irish laws. In particular, presumably some members of various executive branches negotiated some treaties, and then asked their respective legislative branches to "ratify" those treaties, i.e. pass laws binding the signatories to obey the treaties, by their own respective legal systems. My non-lawyer understanding is that EU legal theory recognizes the sovereignty of nations, and the EU's authority is derived from the sovereign authority of nations. Do you actually disagree with any of this? If you do disagree, how do you understand international law to work? i.e. why would Ireland ever care what EU law says, other than via the legal chain I just outlined?
zigzigzag 10y ago
The actual problem here is that no, it's not EU law. The EU has a fixed set of "competencies", i.e. areas of law it controls. Taxation is very very explicitly not one of them. Member states did not ever sign up to letting the EU Commission control their local tax rates. The EU is now trying to work around the treaty-defined limits on its own power by redefining low tax rates as "aid". Beyond the Orwellian doublethink required to define taxation as aid, this is a problem because if it's allowed to define tax rates France and Germany don't like as "state aid" then the EU has effectively increased its own powers far beyond what the treaties were written to allow, without any kind of democratic process or even consent of the national leaders.
- mthoms 10y ago
  AFAIK all large trade treaties have such a clause and it does come up quite often in disputes (See NAFTA for example). It's what the elected representatives of the Irish people signed up for.
- summarite 10y ago
  It is well in the commission's responsibilities to ensure countries don't help companies avoid taxes on other countries, that is a natural element of free trade deals.
- ThePhysicist 10y ago
  It is simply not true that there is no legislative basis for the EU prosecuting Ireland. The relevant document is the "Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union", especially article 107 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A12008E107 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A1...), which is quite explicit about what is allowed and what is not in terms of government subsidies: "Save as otherwise provided in the Treaties, any aid granted by a Member State or through State resources in any form whatsoever which distorts or threatens to distort competition by favouring certain undertakings or the production of certain goods shall, in so far as it affects trade between Member States, be incompatible with the internal market." Taxation is explicitly mentioned in the text as a form of subsidy, hence the EU does not overreach when it tries to enforce the regulations that the member states have agreed upon. It is of course debatable when a taxation is too low, but an effective tax rate of 0.005 percent provides enough evidence of a hidden subsidy to justify the punishment (IMHO).

No, Ireland is still a country it has to follow EU laws because Ireland law says so. They could leave the EU at any time with a single change to their laws. Brexit is going to take time for various reasons, but legally they could have left the next day.

jdmichal 10y ago
Specifically, it takes time to wind it down in a way that does not damage both parties. As you said, Brexit could have happened 100% in a day, but then trade and movement would likely be negatively effected until new deals were worked out. Much better for everyone involved to work out those new deals first, then execute the exit.
akvadrako 10y ago
A country cannot make a law that it's part of the EU and expect the rest of the world to accept it. The EU has to agree and can stipulate the conditions, like following the EU laws. I did not say Ireland needs to follow EU laws if it leaves the EU, but that isn't relevant.
- jholman 10y ago
  Yeah, that's all clear. But notice this sequence: Retric > Ireland also has a law on the books saying it must comply with the EU. akvadrako > Ireland has to follow EU laws because the EU says so Retric > No, Ireland ... has to follow EU laws because Ireland law says so My (modest) understanding of treaty law is that Retric is right, that the laws that require Ireland to obey EU rulings are Irish laws. In particular, presumably some members of various executive branches negotiated some treaties, and then asked their respective legislative branches to "ratify" those treaties, i.e. pass laws binding the signatories to obey the treaties, by their own respective legal systems. My non-lawyer understanding is that EU legal theory recognizes the sovereignty of nations, and the EU's authority is derived from the sovereign authority of nations. Do you actually disagree with any of this? If you do disagree, how do you understand international law to work? i.e. why would Ireland ever care what EU law says, other than via the legal chain I just outlined?

zigzigzag 10y ago

The actual problem here is that no, it's not EU law. The EU has a fixed set of "competencies", i.e. areas of law it controls. Taxation is very very explicitly not one of them. Member states did not ever sign up to letting the EU Commission control their local tax rates. The EU is now trying to work around the treaty-defined limits on its own power by redefining low tax rates as "aid". Beyond the Orwellian doublethink required to define taxation as aid, this is a problem because if it's allowed to define tax rates France and Germany don't like as "state aid" then the EU has effectively increased its own powers far beyond what the treaties were written to allow, without any kind of democratic process or even consent of the national leaders.

mthoms 10y ago
AFAIK all large trade treaties have such a clause and it does come up quite often in disputes (See NAFTA for example). It's what the elected representatives of the Irish people signed up for.
summarite 10y ago
It is well in the commission's responsibilities to ensure countries don't help companies avoid taxes on other countries, that is a natural element of free trade deals.
ThePhysicist 10y ago
It is simply not true that there is no legislative basis for the EU prosecuting Ireland. The relevant document is the "Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union", especially article 107 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A12008E107 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A1...), which is quite explicit about what is allowed and what is not in terms of government subsidies: "Save as otherwise provided in the Treaties, any aid granted by a Member State or through State resources in any form whatsoever which distorts or threatens to distort competition by favouring certain undertakings or the production of certain goods shall, in so far as it affects trade between Member States, be incompatible with the internal market." Taxation is explicitly mentioned in the text as a form of subsidy, hence the EU does not overreach when it tries to enforce the regulations that the member states have agreed upon. It is of course debatable when a taxation is too low, but an effective tax rate of 0.005 percent provides enough evidence of a hidden subsidy to justify the punishment (IMHO).