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After reading the article, I think I still don't understand what a false growth mindset is. Could someone explain?

tom_b 10y ago
I think the clearest answer is Dweck is saying that misunderstanding her concept of the growth mindset leads to a "false growth mindset" rather than strictly defining the term. FTA: But Dweck recently noticed a trend: a widespread embrace of what she refers to as “false growth mindset”— a misunderstanding of the idea’s core message. Growth mindset’s popularity was leading some educators to believe that it was simpler than it was, that it was only about putting forth effort or that a teacher could foster growth mindset merely by telling kids to try hard. The larger concern seems to be that well-meaning educators have co-opted the growth mindset terminology and warped the idea in ways that are directly problematic or directly fixed-mindset in nature.
ideonexus 10y ago
I hated the way the Dweck's explanations really didn't clarify what it is either. The Growth Mindset is making sure students understand that their brains are plastic and that we can grow smarter through effort. This understanding has been shown to improve student efforts and get better academic results. The old way of doing things was to tell kids they are "smart" or "gifted," which resulted in many of those students simply giving up when they failed because smart and gifted are static qualities. So when a smart or gifted child fails, they simply weren't smart or gifted enough. I know many "gifted" students who never amounted to anything because they failed to work at life and simply expected their "gift" to bring them everything. Based on this article, the "false growth mindset" appears to be rewarding effort for effort's sake. "Effort" is replacing "gifted" as being associated with inevitable success. Just because you put effort into something doesn't mean you will succeed, and we must be careful not to, as Dweck provides as example, praise a student who failed a test on their "effort." If a student fails, they should be motivated to work harder. I try to do this with my kids. When they fail, I do praise their effort, but I stress the fact that they must now put more effort in to overcome their failures.
- jrs235 10y ago
  >Just because you put effort into something doesn't mean you will succeed, and we must be careful not to, as Dweck provides as example, praise a student who failed a test on their "effort." Is is safe to say that a good way to instill and convey the growth mindset would be to respond with something like: "Billy, I know you put in a lot of effort in an attempt to learn this material and subject. Putting in effort in an attempt to achieve positive results is a good thing. However, unfortunately the effort doesn't appear to have worked out this time. What might we be able to change or do differently with our effort(s) to achieve our goal of passing this test?" That last bit of the above response is attempting to instill that effort alone isn't enough and rather than working harder find a way to work smarter; growing in our ability to think about the problems and challenges we face. Thoughts?
  - ideonexus 10y ago
    Absolutely. We have to constantly evaluate our efforts for their effectiveness. When we coach our children, we should coach them to be mindful of how they spend their time on their effort and not just the effort itself.
- irishsultan 10y ago
  > If a student fails, they should be motivated to work harder. Or rather, especially assuming they already work hard, they should be motivated to try different approaches (i.e. new techniques for studying or approaching exercises), and ask for help or guidance if they're stuck. Just working harder does not magically solve anything, in fact it may just mean you double down on a wrong/harmful method. (edit: this also means teaching people they should not fear asking questions)
  - npsimons 10y ago
    > Or rather, especially assuming they already work hard, they should be motivated to try different approaches (i.e. new techniques for studying or approaching exercises), and ask for help or guidance if they're stuck. Just working harder does not magically solve anything, in fact it may just mean you double down on a wrong/harmful method. Deliberate practice: it's not just the 10000 hours that make a master, it's the quality of those hours.
jonex 10y ago
I think it get's slightly confusing since growth mindset is something that can exist in both the teacher and the student. So, growth mindset is the belief that you can get better at things. The idea then is that the teacher should embrace this, because then the child will learn from that and embrace it as well. This would be true growth mindset in the teacher. This led to the suggestion to praise effort rather than results. With the idea that effort will increase learning, which will increase results. The problem then is that the teacher might not understand this connection, but only understand that you should praise effort, this would be a false growth mindset. This would lead the teacher to give positive feedback to any effort put in, even if it does not improve learning/growth. In other words, you could call this false growth mindset a "effort" mindset. While the true growth mindset would have a process focus, where you praise the proper application process and give help if the process is ineffective for growth. Fixed mindset: "Great job getting A" "You might not be made out for math, try painting" Growth mindset: "Great that you try to practice the parts you fail often at" "Maybe you should try to understand the underlying logic rather than just guessing the answer and getting it wrong?" False growth mindset: "Great that you keep trying even though you fail!" "You should not feel bad about failing, you put your best effort into it and it's fine!"
- throawaybay 10y ago
  Same with behavioral analysis.. praise the result/behavior you want.
4WIW 10y ago
I think the key to the growth mindset is to help in maintaining the feedback loop: work & effort -> reach your goal -> feel happy. The "fixed mindset" breaks the loop in a way that no matter how hard you'd work you'd never reach that goal because only "gifted" reach it and you are not gifted enough. Another extreme is "false growth mindset" that also breaks the feedback loop but in a different way: no matter the results, you will still get praise for "effort", so there is no point in trying harder. "Growth mindset" is helpful but it is not a magic replacement for hard work and learning to deal with frustration.
- 0xcde4c3db 10y ago
  What a lot of GM proponents seemingly don't want to admit is that the loop can also be broken when people repeatedly don't reach their goals despite putting in more effort than people who do reach those same goals. I'm not sure conventional educational methods and institutions have a method or mechanism to respond constructively to that situation.
  - Jarwain 10y ago
    So part of the idea isn't just putting in raw effort, it is about trying alternate methods and strategies. Figuring out why the goals weren't reached, and determining multiple different strategies for achieving those goals. If they just put more effort into the same failing strategy, it just doesn't work. Do the same thing a different way, in essence.
    - 0xcde4c3db 10y ago
      I guess what I'm getting at is that to do that for children in school implies that the schools themselves have to either become more adaptable and less rigid or cede some of their authority over education to give students space to try other approaches. It's presumably a much better sell at an institutional level if you can just say "look, we have Growth Mindset worksheets and posters and pamphlets that you can slot into your lesson plans".
      - 10y ago
unoti 10y ago
Summary: False growth mindset is praising the effort that doesn't lead to successful learning. We don't want to encourage people to redouble their efforts on strategies that aren't working. Growth mindset strategy replaces the failed strategy of heaping praise on everyone equally regardless of outcome. And praising effort that's leading nowhere isn't much better. > Students need to know that if they’re stuck, they don’t need just effort. You don’t want them redoubling their efforts with the same ineffective strategies. You want them to know when to ask for help and when to use resources that are available. > So, with praise, focus on “process praise”—focus on the learning process and show how hard work, good strategies, and good use of resources lead to better learning.
edblarney 10y ago
Agree it's a bad metaphor. Essentially, it's the idea that when one is confronted with failure, one believes they can either 'improve' or rather, be 'resigned' to the fact they are not good at whatever it is. I believe this perspective is valid, and that it exists, and that it's one of the fundamental elements of character that shapes our lives. I was always good at math and music. I would never, ever detract from a math problem. I would attack it. I was a poor athlete. (Bad cardio, always). I firmly and resolutely believe that I could not run a long distance. 5K would kill me. It was very painful. But I was out of shape and didn't realize what it meant to improve. I joined officer corps in the Army and was eventually forced to go some pretty long distances, always extremely anxious and at the tail of the pack, but I got through and eventually did a marathon distance. I can assure you my mind was completely blown. It was though I had learned to fly. I firmly believed I could not do it, but I did ... so if I could do a marathon, what else could I do? I saw the relationship between training and outcomes, and realized that being 'out of shape' simply means you have to do some things to 'get into shape'. Obviously, it's not so easy to do, but the relationship is clear. That, and some similar things, completely changed my life. I believe many, many people are trapped in a limited view of themselves. Conversely - the opposite exists - we sometimes believe we can 'do anything' if we just try enough, which is obviously not the case. I'm working with a startup non-technical CEO who believes they can bang together a solution with almost no resources, in almost no time, for something that is better than even Google' cutting edge solution. I appreciate the audacity ... but it's unrealistic.

tom_b 10y ago

I think the clearest answer is Dweck is saying that misunderstanding her concept of the growth mindset leads to a "false growth mindset" rather than strictly defining the term. FTA: But Dweck recently noticed a trend: a widespread embrace of what she refers to as “false growth mindset”— a misunderstanding of the idea’s core message. Growth mindset’s popularity was leading some educators to believe that it was simpler than it was, that it was only about putting forth effort or that a teacher could foster growth mindset merely by telling kids to try hard. The larger concern seems to be that well-meaning educators have co-opted the growth mindset terminology and warped the idea in ways that are directly problematic or directly fixed-mindset in nature.

ideonexus 10y ago

I hated the way the Dweck's explanations really didn't clarify what it is either. The Growth Mindset is making sure students understand that their brains are plastic and that we can grow smarter through effort. This understanding has been shown to improve student efforts and get better academic results. The old way of doing things was to tell kids they are "smart" or "gifted," which resulted in many of those students simply giving up when they failed because smart and gifted are static qualities. So when a smart or gifted child fails, they simply weren't smart or gifted enough. I know many "gifted" students who never amounted to anything because they failed to work at life and simply expected their "gift" to bring them everything. Based on this article, the "false growth mindset" appears to be rewarding effort for effort's sake. "Effort" is replacing "gifted" as being associated with inevitable success. Just because you put effort into something doesn't mean you will succeed, and we must be careful not to, as Dweck provides as example, praise a student who failed a test on their "effort." If a student fails, they should be motivated to work harder. I try to do this with my kids. When they fail, I do praise their effort, but I stress the fact that they must now put more effort in to overcome their failures.

jrs235 10y ago
>Just because you put effort into something doesn't mean you will succeed, and we must be careful not to, as Dweck provides as example, praise a student who failed a test on their "effort." Is is safe to say that a good way to instill and convey the growth mindset would be to respond with something like: "Billy, I know you put in a lot of effort in an attempt to learn this material and subject. Putting in effort in an attempt to achieve positive results is a good thing. However, unfortunately the effort doesn't appear to have worked out this time. What might we be able to change or do differently with our effort(s) to achieve our goal of passing this test?" That last bit of the above response is attempting to instill that effort alone isn't enough and rather than working harder find a way to work smarter; growing in our ability to think about the problems and challenges we face. Thoughts?
- ideonexus 10y ago
  Absolutely. We have to constantly evaluate our efforts for their effectiveness. When we coach our children, we should coach them to be mindful of how they spend their time on their effort and not just the effort itself.
irishsultan 10y ago
> If a student fails, they should be motivated to work harder. Or rather, especially assuming they already work hard, they should be motivated to try different approaches (i.e. new techniques for studying or approaching exercises), and ask for help or guidance if they're stuck. Just working harder does not magically solve anything, in fact it may just mean you double down on a wrong/harmful method. (edit: this also means teaching people they should not fear asking questions)
- npsimons 10y ago
  > Or rather, especially assuming they already work hard, they should be motivated to try different approaches (i.e. new techniques for studying or approaching exercises), and ask for help or guidance if they're stuck. Just working harder does not magically solve anything, in fact it may just mean you double down on a wrong/harmful method. Deliberate practice: it's not just the 10000 hours that make a master, it's the quality of those hours.

jonex 10y ago

I think it get's slightly confusing since growth mindset is something that can exist in both the teacher and the student. So, growth mindset is the belief that you can get better at things. The idea then is that the teacher should embrace this, because then the child will learn from that and embrace it as well. This would be true growth mindset in the teacher. This led to the suggestion to praise effort rather than results. With the idea that effort will increase learning, which will increase results. The problem then is that the teacher might not understand this connection, but only understand that you should praise effort, this would be a false growth mindset. This would lead the teacher to give positive feedback to any effort put in, even if it does not improve learning/growth. In other words, you could call this false growth mindset a "effort" mindset. While the true growth mindset would have a process focus, where you praise the proper application process and give help if the process is ineffective for growth. Fixed mindset: "Great job getting A" "You might not be made out for math, try painting" Growth mindset: "Great that you try to practice the parts you fail often at" "Maybe you should try to understand the underlying logic rather than just guessing the answer and getting it wrong?" False growth mindset: "Great that you keep trying even though you fail!" "You should not feel bad about failing, you put your best effort into it and it's fine!"

throawaybay 10y ago
Same with behavioral analysis.. praise the result/behavior you want.

4WIW 10y ago

I think the key to the growth mindset is to help in maintaining the feedback loop: work & effort -> reach your goal -> feel happy. The "fixed mindset" breaks the loop in a way that no matter how hard you'd work you'd never reach that goal because only "gifted" reach it and you are not gifted enough. Another extreme is "false growth mindset" that also breaks the feedback loop but in a different way: no matter the results, you will still get praise for "effort", so there is no point in trying harder. "Growth mindset" is helpful but it is not a magic replacement for hard work and learning to deal with frustration.

0xcde4c3db 10y ago
What a lot of GM proponents seemingly don't want to admit is that the loop can also be broken when people repeatedly don't reach their goals despite putting in more effort than people who do reach those same goals. I'm not sure conventional educational methods and institutions have a method or mechanism to respond constructively to that situation.
- Jarwain 10y ago
  So part of the idea isn't just putting in raw effort, it is about trying alternate methods and strategies. Figuring out why the goals weren't reached, and determining multiple different strategies for achieving those goals. If they just put more effort into the same failing strategy, it just doesn't work. Do the same thing a different way, in essence.
  - 0xcde4c3db 10y ago
    I guess what I'm getting at is that to do that for children in school implies that the schools themselves have to either become more adaptable and less rigid or cede some of their authority over education to give students space to try other approaches. It's presumably a much better sell at an institutional level if you can just say "look, we have Growth Mindset worksheets and posters and pamphlets that you can slot into your lesson plans".
    - 10y ago

unoti 10y ago

Summary: False growth mindset is praising the effort that doesn't lead to successful learning. We don't want to encourage people to redouble their efforts on strategies that aren't working. Growth mindset strategy replaces the failed strategy of heaping praise on everyone equally regardless of outcome. And praising effort that's leading nowhere isn't much better. > Students need to know that if they’re stuck, they don’t need just effort. You don’t want them redoubling their efforts with the same ineffective strategies. You want them to know when to ask for help and when to use resources that are available. > So, with praise, focus on “process praise”—focus on the learning process and show how hard work, good strategies, and good use of resources lead to better learning.

edblarney 10y ago

Agree it's a bad metaphor. Essentially, it's the idea that when one is confronted with failure, one believes they can either 'improve' or rather, be 'resigned' to the fact they are not good at whatever it is. I believe this perspective is valid, and that it exists, and that it's one of the fundamental elements of character that shapes our lives. I was always good at math and music. I would never, ever detract from a math problem. I would attack it. I was a poor athlete. (Bad cardio, always). I firmly and resolutely believe that I could not run a long distance. 5K would kill me. It was very painful. But I was out of shape and didn't realize what it meant to improve. I joined officer corps in the Army and was eventually forced to go some pretty long distances, always extremely anxious and at the tail of the pack, but I got through and eventually did a marathon distance. I can assure you my mind was completely blown. It was though I had learned to fly. I firmly believed I could not do it, but I did ... so if I could do a marathon, what else could I do? I saw the relationship between training and outcomes, and realized that being 'out of shape' simply means you have to do some things to 'get into shape'. Obviously, it's not so easy to do, but the relationship is clear. That, and some similar things, completely changed my life. I believe many, many people are trapped in a limited view of themselves. Conversely - the opposite exists - we sometimes believe we can 'do anything' if we just try enough, which is obviously not the case. I'm working with a startup non-technical CEO who believes they can bang together a solution with almost no resources, in almost no time, for something that is better than even Google' cutting edge solution. I appreciate the audacity ... but it's unrealistic.