6 ms·

Ireland DOES grant that tax law to all companies within their borders, as the article clearly outlines. From TFA, among other relevant paragraphs: > It is imp

by jholman 10y ago

Ireland DOES grant that tax law to all companies within their borders, as the article clearly outlines. From TFA, among other relevant paragraphs: > It is important to note that the words “any aid” covers not only one-off deals between Ireland and Apple, but also any general provision of the Irish Tax Code that would encourage favorable treatment.

belorn 10y ago
Corporate tax in irland is NOT 0.005 percent. It is, as you even quoted, a one-off deal between Ireland and Apple. The EU article simply covers any deal which would create such favorable treatment, and the key word is "distort competition". "any aid granted by a member state or through state resources in any form whatsoever which distorts or threatens to distort competition by favoring certain undertakings or the production of certain goods shall … be incompatible with the internal market.”"
- jholman 10y ago
  There are no one-off deals, and Apple doesn't pay 0.005%. Apple pays Ireland 12.5% of all taxable-in-Ireland income. That's because that's Ireland's corporate income tax rate. Conveniently, because of the structure of Irish tax law, very very little income is taxable in Ireland. And that's more than is taxable in any other EU country. And, in fact, there's no country where very much of their income is taxable. Pretty awesome for them, I guess. When the bullshitters say "paying 0.005% effective tax rate", they mean "when you take all their revenue everywhere [in the EU], they pay 0.005% on that". That's not how tax works for any corporation ever.
  - scholia 10y ago
    As I've said in another comment, what Apple is doing is basically a scam. (1) Avoid paying taxes in the UK, Germany, France etc by claiming you're taxed in Ireland. (2) Once in Ireland, channel the money into a fake company (0 staff, 0 offices) that is stateless and isn't taxed anywhere. This is "creative accounting" at its finest.....
    - jholman 10y ago
      You're missing several stages in how the creative accounting works, and each of those stages are, separately, probably good things, which is why they exist in the first place. Note, for example, that the UK and Germany and France all have laws that make it okay to avoid paying taxes by claiming (truthfully) that you're taxed in Ireland, according to the laws of tax residency of those respective countries. But yes, it's an undesirable-to-collective-civilization loophole, and it'd be nice for it to be closed. I'd love for Apple to be compelled to pay more taxes. Yes yes yes! I'm surprised that the EU is making so much headway in this round, but if they fail in this round, I resoundingly hope they pass some new laws, such that they can win in the future. The "head office" company isn't stateless, btw, and btw it technically has an office (usually a P.O. Box) and some people do work for it. There are maybe a dozen companies involved, including the actual-work-doing companies in the UK and Germany and France, and every one of those companies have an HQ in a state. I think that the "head office" is even located legally in Ireland.
      - scholia 10y ago
        > the UK and Germany and France all have laws that make it okay to avoid paying taxes by claiming (truthfully) that you're taxed in Ireland Yes. The problem is that Apple isn't paying taxes in Ireland on the money it tells the UK and Germany and France is being taxed in Ireland. There's no good way to gloss over this. It's either criminal or it's unethical.
    - dkonofalski 10y ago
      It's not a scam as much as it's a loophole. The other countries allow for corporations to not pay taxes if they are paying taxes in another country. Apple is paying taxes in Ireland, so they are not required to pay taxes in those other countries. In Ireland, though, the law there says that you can only be taxed on income that's actually generated in Ireland. Since Apple only generates sales income in Ireland from things like online sales and regional sales, they only get taxed on those amounts. It's a loophole. The loophole should be closed, but I don't think Apple should have to pay anything in back taxes because what they were doing was completely legal and allowed by all the laws currently in place.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - disiplus 10y ago
    afaik the problem is this. apple should pay taxes where they do business, but they dont, they tunnel everything thru ireland. and ireland says, ok apple you have to pay only the tax on the income u generated here in ireland, everything that came from outside is free.
- Graphon1 10y ago
  > It is, as you even quoted, a one-off deal between Ireland and Apple. no, the phrase referred to _possible_ one-off deals between Ireland and Apple. Just mentioning them does not cause them to appear. See: > the words “any aid” covers not only one-off deals between Ireland and Apple, but also any general provision...

by jholman 10y ago

belorn 10y ago

Corporate tax in irland is NOT 0.005 percent. It is, as you even quoted, a one-off deal between Ireland and Apple. The EU article simply covers any deal which would create such favorable treatment, and the key word is "distort competition". "any aid granted by a member state or through state resources in any form whatsoever which distorts or threatens to distort competition by favoring certain undertakings or the production of certain goods shall … be incompatible with the internal market.”"

jholman 10y ago
There are no one-off deals, and Apple doesn't pay 0.005%. Apple pays Ireland 12.5% of all taxable-in-Ireland income. That's because that's Ireland's corporate income tax rate. Conveniently, because of the structure of Irish tax law, very very little income is taxable in Ireland. And that's more than is taxable in any other EU country. And, in fact, there's no country where very much of their income is taxable. Pretty awesome for them, I guess. When the bullshitters say "paying 0.005% effective tax rate", they mean "when you take all their revenue everywhere [in the EU], they pay 0.005% on that". That's not how tax works for any corporation ever.
- scholia 10y ago
  As I've said in another comment, what Apple is doing is basically a scam. (1) Avoid paying taxes in the UK, Germany, France etc by claiming you're taxed in Ireland. (2) Once in Ireland, channel the money into a fake company (0 staff, 0 offices) that is stateless and isn't taxed anywhere. This is "creative accounting" at its finest.....
  - jholman 10y ago
    You're missing several stages in how the creative accounting works, and each of those stages are, separately, probably good things, which is why they exist in the first place. Note, for example, that the UK and Germany and France all have laws that make it okay to avoid paying taxes by claiming (truthfully) that you're taxed in Ireland, according to the laws of tax residency of those respective countries. But yes, it's an undesirable-to-collective-civilization loophole, and it'd be nice for it to be closed. I'd love for Apple to be compelled to pay more taxes. Yes yes yes! I'm surprised that the EU is making so much headway in this round, but if they fail in this round, I resoundingly hope they pass some new laws, such that they can win in the future. The "head office" company isn't stateless, btw, and btw it technically has an office (usually a P.O. Box) and some people do work for it. There are maybe a dozen companies involved, including the actual-work-doing companies in the UK and Germany and France, and every one of those companies have an HQ in a state. I think that the "head office" is even located legally in Ireland.
    - scholia 10y ago
      > the UK and Germany and France all have laws that make it okay to avoid paying taxes by claiming (truthfully) that you're taxed in Ireland Yes. The problem is that Apple isn't paying taxes in Ireland on the money it tells the UK and Germany and France is being taxed in Ireland. There's no good way to gloss over this. It's either criminal or it's unethical.
  - dkonofalski 10y ago
    It's not a scam as much as it's a loophole. The other countries allow for corporations to not pay taxes if they are paying taxes in another country. Apple is paying taxes in Ireland, so they are not required to pay taxes in those other countries. In Ireland, though, the law there says that you can only be taxed on income that's actually generated in Ireland. Since Apple only generates sales income in Ireland from things like online sales and regional sales, they only get taxed on those amounts. It's a loophole. The loophole should be closed, but I don't think Apple should have to pay anything in back taxes because what they were doing was completely legal and allowed by all the laws currently in place.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- disiplus 10y ago
  afaik the problem is this. apple should pay taxes where they do business, but they dont, they tunnel everything thru ireland. and ireland says, ok apple you have to pay only the tax on the income u generated here in ireland, everything that came from outside is free.
Graphon1 10y ago
> It is, as you even quoted, a one-off deal between Ireland and Apple. no, the phrase referred to _possible_ one-off deals between Ireland and Apple. Just mentioning them does not cause them to appear. See: > the words “any aid” covers not only one-off deals between Ireland and Apple, but also any general provision...