6 ms·

Apple here is making threats, but they're threats the commission should listen to carefully. I mean, if the Commission wants to drive US tech companies out of

Apple here is making threats, but they're threats the commission should listen to carefully. I mean, if the Commission wants to drive US tech companies out of the EU on the specious grounds that it might help the moribund EU startup scene, go ahead. But let's just say I have no doubt the UK government is quietly watching. I doubt it would be enormously difficult for Apple to relocate from Dublin to London.

skrause 10y ago
The EU would be fine with Apple moving its money to the US and paying their fair share of taxes there. But you can't tell the US that profits are generated in Ireland while agreeing with Ireland that profits are generated in the US, just so you end up paying taxes nowhere.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > The EU would be fine with Apple moving its money to the US and paying their fair share of taxes there. Why would it be fine with this? Taxes are paid where the revenue is generated. If money were to be repatriated without tax to HQ's resident country, then all companies would be registered in tax havens and pay no tax. Apple is trying to play off the EU against the US - they ought to pay the due taxes in both jurisdictions.
  - pawadu 10y ago
    > Why would it be fine with this? Why not? Apple doesn't produce any tax income for them, Apple has zero R&D in EU, and Apple not selling to EU consumers would only benefit the local companies like BQ, Sony and Alcatel.
    - quonn 10y ago
      They don't create jobs, so they should not be taxed? What a surprising statement! It's possible to make a point that a company that creates jobs should not be taxed (although I think that's wrong, too).
      - pawadu 10y ago
        I am talking about short term effects, and not claiming this is a very sane argument. But you should understand that Apple was given a competitive edge against other companies that did pay their EU taxes. If Apple decided to leave the EU market tomorrow, it would in short term result in economical gain for the EU members since people would by buy the same amount of phones/tablets/laptops but now from companies that (hopefully) pay their corporate taxes.
lispm 10y ago
> I mean, if the Commission wants to drive US tech companies out of the EU on the specious grounds that it might help the moribund EU startup scene I thought the EU commission just wanted them to properly pay taxes. > I doubt it would be enormously difficult for Apple to relocate from Dublin to London. Once the UK is outside the EU, Apple needs a representation in the UK. No doubt. The UK also has a lot of associated tax havens. Probably useful, too. Possibly Apple also needs to be represented in the EU, if it wants to keep addressing a then 450 million people market.
roryisok 10y ago
London would be outside the EU though. Apple is based on Ireland because it 1) is in the EU, and 2) offers low corporation tax, not the other way around. If Ireland left the EU today, Apple would up sticks and move tomorrow, even if the tax rate stayed the same
ben_w 10y ago
While it would probably be relatively easy for Apple to move to London, I think the British stance on privacy (Investigatory Powers Bill etc.) would make Apple less interested than one might expect from simple tax rules. Then there are all the Brexit related questions about export of services, and I have no idea at all how that might or might not change things.
- keithpeter 10y ago
  "Then there are all the Brexit related questions about export of services, and I have no idea at all how that might or might not change things." I suspect noone has a clear idea about that at this stage. Negotiations yet to start &c and the negotiation stance that HM Government appears to take is itself a highly political question within some quarters in the UK.
Marazan 10y ago
The whole point of being in Dublin was to have an EU based office plus a 'favorable' tax regime to bilk European nations out of tax revenue. Moving to London is a non starter as it takes that office out of the EU.
tanto 10y ago
If Apple moves to London they would need to move back to the EU in few years. London is soon not to be part of the EU. Also the EU startup scene is most certainly not moribund. I guess you are misinformed. And at last. The Commission doesn't want to drive out a US company. The European Union just has the expectation that companies doing business in Europe should pay taxes in Europe.
diakritikal 10y ago
Eh? this is not specious, a one off 0.005% deal is anti-competition and illegal under EU law, Apple doesn't get to decide what EU competition laws it can and cannot ignore. Ask Microsoft, ask Google... both tried, both failed. Nobody is rushing to incorporate as a startup in the UK right now, quite the opposite - there's lots of talk of moving to Berlin/Paris/Stockholm. There are numerous reasons for this but I'll mention two strong disincentives: 1.) Impending `Brexit` and loss of access to the EU single market 2.) The 'Britain is Closed for business' nature of the new snoopers charter which compels online companies based in the UK to get government approval for any new technology that uses encryption, and also compels them to build backdoors for the government spooks if asked.
pluma 10y ago
The UK is leaving the EU. Having the EU HQ in the UK would not only be silly, it'd also be a huge headache (as many EU organisations are finding out with Article 50 approaching). Also, what would Apple gain from withdrawing? They weren't paying taxes in Ireland, but they're also not paying taxes in the US. If they pulled out of Ireland they'd still have to pay taxes somewhere, which is exactly the situation they're facing now (just in the US instead of Ireland).
gutnor 10y ago
> I doubt it would be enormously difficult for Apple to relocate from Dublin to London. Obviously it is not. Tax sheltering does not require much physical presence at all. It probably requires no more than changing a few contract between subsidiaries to initiate the cash movement to their fiscal haven of choice. The real problem for Apple is for the money that is already there. More generally this generation of tax avoidance is probably coming to an end: both the EU and the US are looking at it those days, and Ireland is one regulation away to have to find another way to print money. Not quite sure what's the big deal. Tax avoidance scheme are rarely stable long term. Extracting tax money is a global competitive market between state and large companies/rich individual. You should sleep peacefully knowing that in all the possible resolution of this affair, Apple will always have to effectively pay less tax than possible to your little startup stuck in a single country tax system.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dandare 10y ago
  You don't understand, they would gain nothing by moving to London. Either London stays in the EU market in which case it must not give Apple unfair advantage or London does not stay in the EU market in which case Apple must pay tax for EU sales in EU.
  - gutnor 10y ago
    Yes and no, maybe. You are right that this current flavour of tax avoidance is not going to work anymore and moving to London now or in the future will not change the outcome for the money mentioned here, only future money. However about London, once outside the EU they will have the opportunity to position themselves as a tax haven with clever new tax avoidance scheme for large companies. Now you probably automatically dismissed the idea because that's a crazy idea. Setting up yourself as a tax haven does not scale to the size of the UK economy, and the UK would need to do it at a time of intense scrutiny by the global community and the EU will certainly see that as a aggressive negotiation tactic which is not going to help the Brexit negotiation. But well, there were better arguments for not leaving the EU in the first place, and yet the UK seems to merely go for the hardest Brexit possible. So who knows ? McDonald (fiscal) move to London is worrying. Nissan and others are a bit too happy after their secret chat with the PM.
lyschoening 10y ago
Or Apple could simply pay taxes on their products in the countries that they sell them in. No reason to move away from Ireland.
quonn 10y ago
> if the Commission wants to drive US tech companies out of the EU Apple has very few research and development or production jobs in the EU. It's mostly sales. For those sales they should pay taxes. The EU has nothing to loose here.

skrause 10y ago

The EU would be fine with Apple moving its money to the US and paying their fair share of taxes there. But you can't tell the US that profits are generated in Ireland while agreeing with Ireland that profits are generated in the US, just so you end up paying taxes nowhere.

sangnoir 10y ago
> The EU would be fine with Apple moving its money to the US and paying their fair share of taxes there. Why would it be fine with this? Taxes are paid where the revenue is generated. If money were to be repatriated without tax to HQ's resident country, then all companies would be registered in tax havens and pay no tax. Apple is trying to play off the EU against the US - they ought to pay the due taxes in both jurisdictions.
- pawadu 10y ago
  > Why would it be fine with this? Why not? Apple doesn't produce any tax income for them, Apple has zero R&D in EU, and Apple not selling to EU consumers would only benefit the local companies like BQ, Sony and Alcatel.
  - quonn 10y ago
    They don't create jobs, so they should not be taxed? What a surprising statement! It's possible to make a point that a company that creates jobs should not be taxed (although I think that's wrong, too).
    - pawadu 10y ago
      I am talking about short term effects, and not claiming this is a very sane argument. But you should understand that Apple was given a competitive edge against other companies that did pay their EU taxes. If Apple decided to leave the EU market tomorrow, it would in short term result in economical gain for the EU members since people would by buy the same amount of phones/tablets/laptops but now from companies that (hopefully) pay their corporate taxes.

lispm 10y ago

> I mean, if the Commission wants to drive US tech companies out of the EU on the specious grounds that it might help the moribund EU startup scene I thought the EU commission just wanted them to properly pay taxes. > I doubt it would be enormously difficult for Apple to relocate from Dublin to London. Once the UK is outside the EU, Apple needs a representation in the UK. No doubt. The UK also has a lot of associated tax havens. Probably useful, too. Possibly Apple also needs to be represented in the EU, if it wants to keep addressing a then 450 million people market.

roryisok 10y ago

London would be outside the EU though. Apple is based on Ireland because it 1) is in the EU, and 2) offers low corporation tax, not the other way around. If Ireland left the EU today, Apple would up sticks and move tomorrow, even if the tax rate stayed the same

ben_w 10y ago

While it would probably be relatively easy for Apple to move to London, I think the British stance on privacy (Investigatory Powers Bill etc.) would make Apple less interested than one might expect from simple tax rules. Then there are all the Brexit related questions about export of services, and I have no idea at all how that might or might not change things.

keithpeter 10y ago
"Then there are all the Brexit related questions about export of services, and I have no idea at all how that might or might not change things." I suspect noone has a clear idea about that at this stage. Negotiations yet to start &c and the negotiation stance that HM Government appears to take is itself a highly political question within some quarters in the UK.

Marazan 10y ago

The whole point of being in Dublin was to have an EU based office plus a 'favorable' tax regime to bilk European nations out of tax revenue. Moving to London is a non starter as it takes that office out of the EU.

tanto 10y ago

If Apple moves to London they would need to move back to the EU in few years. London is soon not to be part of the EU. Also the EU startup scene is most certainly not moribund. I guess you are misinformed. And at last. The Commission doesn't want to drive out a US company. The European Union just has the expectation that companies doing business in Europe should pay taxes in Europe.

diakritikal 10y ago

Eh? this is not specious, a one off 0.005% deal is anti-competition and illegal under EU law, Apple doesn't get to decide what EU competition laws it can and cannot ignore. Ask Microsoft, ask Google... both tried, both failed. Nobody is rushing to incorporate as a startup in the UK right now, quite the opposite - there's lots of talk of moving to Berlin/Paris/Stockholm. There are numerous reasons for this but I'll mention two strong disincentives: 1.) Impending `Brexit` and loss of access to the EU single market 2.) The 'Britain is Closed for business' nature of the new snoopers charter which compels online companies based in the UK to get government approval for any new technology that uses encryption, and also compels them to build backdoors for the government spooks if asked.

pluma 10y ago

The UK is leaving the EU. Having the EU HQ in the UK would not only be silly, it'd also be a huge headache (as many EU organisations are finding out with Article 50 approaching). Also, what would Apple gain from withdrawing? They weren't paying taxes in Ireland, but they're also not paying taxes in the US. If they pulled out of Ireland they'd still have to pay taxes somewhere, which is exactly the situation they're facing now (just in the US instead of Ireland).

gutnor 10y ago

> I doubt it would be enormously difficult for Apple to relocate from Dublin to London. Obviously it is not. Tax sheltering does not require much physical presence at all. It probably requires no more than changing a few contract between subsidiaries to initiate the cash movement to their fiscal haven of choice. The real problem for Apple is for the money that is already there. More generally this generation of tax avoidance is probably coming to an end: both the EU and the US are looking at it those days, and Ireland is one regulation away to have to find another way to print money. Not quite sure what's the big deal. Tax avoidance scheme are rarely stable long term. Extracting tax money is a global competitive market between state and large companies/rich individual. You should sleep peacefully knowing that in all the possible resolution of this affair, Apple will always have to effectively pay less tax than possible to your little startup stuck in a single country tax system.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dandare 10y ago
You don't understand, they would gain nothing by moving to London. Either London stays in the EU market in which case it must not give Apple unfair advantage or London does not stay in the EU market in which case Apple must pay tax for EU sales in EU.
- gutnor 10y ago
  Yes and no, maybe. You are right that this current flavour of tax avoidance is not going to work anymore and moving to London now or in the future will not change the outcome for the money mentioned here, only future money. However about London, once outside the EU they will have the opportunity to position themselves as a tax haven with clever new tax avoidance scheme for large companies. Now you probably automatically dismissed the idea because that's a crazy idea. Setting up yourself as a tax haven does not scale to the size of the UK economy, and the UK would need to do it at a time of intense scrutiny by the global community and the EU will certainly see that as a aggressive negotiation tactic which is not going to help the Brexit negotiation. But well, there were better arguments for not leaving the EU in the first place, and yet the UK seems to merely go for the hardest Brexit possible. So who knows ? McDonald (fiscal) move to London is worrying. Nissan and others are a bit too happy after their secret chat with the PM.

lyschoening 10y ago

Or Apple could simply pay taxes on their products in the countries that they sell them in. No reason to move away from Ireland.

quonn 10y ago

> if the Commission wants to drive US tech companies out of the EU Apple has very few research and development or production jobs in the EU. It's mostly sales. For those sales they should pay taxes. The EU has nothing to loose here.