6 ms·

As a game designer, I find casino "games" frustrating, because they are designed to not only mitigate skill, but also luck, in favor of the house. The fact tha

As a game designer, I find casino "games" frustrating, because they are designed to not only mitigate skill, but also luck, in favor of the house. The fact that the casinos have roped in John Law to steal back their winnings after they were taken fair and square is especially galling. If they were grown-ups, they would take their beating, ban Ivey and Sun for life, and change their processes to avoid being beaten again in the same way.

micaksica 10y ago
Agreed. Ivey and Sun played by the house's rules, the house lost, and now they're trying their damndest to change the rules ex post facto into something that suits them. I find this a brilliant exploit of baccarat and I smile when the house gets pwned by something they didn't quite expect within their own rules. Borgata should probably be focusing their ire at Gemaco, not at Sun. Her skill is what won this, and I hope that in the end she gets her "revenge".
- boulos 10y ago
  Apparently they have! (Suing Gemaco for defective cards: http://www.flushdraw.net/news/borgata-fires-back-at-cardmaker-gemaco-in-phil-ivey-edge-sorting-case/ http://www.flushdraw.net/news/borgata-fires-back-at-cardmake...)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
KVFinn 10y ago
>As a game designer, I find casino "games" frustrating It's funny -- I'm as vulnerable as anyone else to a million addictive game mechanics that build on the same impulses that make gambling addictive. But actual real-life casino slot machines just don't work. I need to be like, evaluating the loot drop's fire resistance on a new helmet or whatever for it to be addictive. When you just push a button over and over again with no actual input it's just too obvious you are doing nothing.
- jacobush 10y ago
  Interesting angle. You need to have your thought processes distracted...
- dagw 10y ago
  Don't most slot machines these days come with a bunch of extra mini-games and side bets for just this reason. Admittedly I've only watched people play, but there seems to be a whole lot more going on than simply pressing a single button over and over
- milesvp 10y ago
  I'd bet you're under 35 ;) I've heard several reports that casinos can't get millenials to play slots, and I suspect it's because they're very unsophisticated compared to even the most basic video game.
  - AlexDanger 10y ago
    That's interesting, do you work in the industry? Things have come full circle - slot machines paved the way for gamification techniques and IAP. Flashing lights, the sounds, the 'I almost won' near-misses from the big jackpot...all finely tuned to get that dopamine squirting and keep you on the machine. Very Pavlovian. Video games (IAP in particular) are just rehashing the psychological tricks that slot machines have used for decades. Its just the games are newer and offer a bit more depth. I'm sure in good time we'll see more advanced slot machines to entice the smartphone generation.
    - dagw 10y ago
      I'm sure in good time we'll see more advanced slot machines to entice the smartphone generation. Certainly here in Sweden they've short-circuited that entire process by making the slot machines into smartphone apps so that you can play whenever you want without even having to leave the comfort of your own home
  - jbob2000 10y ago
    Under 35 casino-goer here. We go every couple months for the cheap booze, free non-alcoholic drinks, and live music. Our group all sits at one machine together and we take turns putting our $5 bills in. We just kinda drunkly chat while one person has a go at trying to win the cost of drinks back. It's pretty fun, cheaper than a bar and much more to do.
mcherm 10y ago
If they were smart grown-ups they would be advertising the hell out of this: there's a lot more than $10 million to be made by allowing players to believe that a sufficiently smart "system" can beat the house. A really smart marketer would realize that a court case like this gets printed up in the newspapers and shared on websites (meta!) and might intentionally try to lose the case in a spectacular fashion.
- pc86 10y ago
  Yes, then the casino owners would finally be successful! They seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.
- pinkrooftop 10y ago
  This is the idea behind 100x or 1000x odds in craps. People either won't play that high, or the other -EV play decisions outweigh even massive true odds action
  - jly 10y ago
    Yeah, 100x odds is a great marketing move but it isn't that helpful to the average gambler. A game of heads or tails with a fair coin would be the best EV bet in the casino, but it isn't that useful if I need to place a minimum $1000 bet per flip.
imagist 10y ago
Corporations are by nature amoral, only caring about money.
- SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
  I disagree. That's only really a modern American take on corporations, and even then, you have things like social purpose corporations.
  - imagist 10y ago
    The modern American take on a corporation is the existent majority of successful corporations. That's certainly how casinos operate. I'm not saying this is the kind of corporation I want--on the contrary, I despise that such organizations are allowed to exist. But saying that corporations shouldn't act immorally when they can make more money by acting immorally is like saying termites shouldn't eat wood. It's the nature of corporations to seek profit at all cost and if you don't want that, you don't want a corporation, at least in the sense that corporations exist today.
    - SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
      Again, I disagree. That's not how the majority of corporations exist today, nor reflects how most people believe they should operate. It's the behavior of a small percentage of large corporations, largely supported by people like you throwing their hands up and going "well, that's just the way of it!" Expecting corporations to behave ethically is no different than expecting people to behave ethically -- and we should do the same thing about both situations, establish rules and police them. It's nothing at all like termites and wood: it's a voluntary choice made by people, not a biological imperative from an unthinking creature. It's the policing that has collapsed, because people like you have bought the propaganda that we should accept and normalize such behavior from corportations.
      - EdHominem 10y ago
        The laws exist to remove legal culpability. It's not throwing our hands up, it's recognizing the source of the problem. Until we fix the laws, the entire point of a corporation is to diffuse legal responsibility. Yes, it needs to change, but it can't change from the ignorant position that we're fixing leaks and will eventually have a waterproof system. It's intentionally setup to be this way and nothing short of an entire overhauling will fix it.
hash-set 10y ago
Gambling has always been a tax for the mathematically illiterate. Casino gambling has always been a scam and this proves it--whenever someone too clever comes along, they run right to the muscle to get their money back.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  "Tax for the mathematically illiterate" is an mean thing that smug people say to pat themselves on the back and feel smarter than the "peons." It's like saying "people who go to concerts are too stupid to figure out how to buy a CD." Even if you 100% know the odds are nowhere near your favor its possible to get pleasure from the act of putting down a bet, even if you lose. It can be a form of entertainment. I, personally, don't get this pleasure but I can understand other people like different things than me. Whether or not it should be legal, its additive potential is too much of a burden on society, or is ethical is a different question entirely.

micaksica 10y ago

Agreed. Ivey and Sun played by the house's rules, the house lost, and now they're trying their damndest to change the rules ex post facto into something that suits them. I find this a brilliant exploit of baccarat and I smile when the house gets pwned by something they didn't quite expect within their own rules. Borgata should probably be focusing their ire at Gemaco, not at Sun. Her skill is what won this, and I hope that in the end she gets her "revenge".

boulos 10y ago
Apparently they have! (Suing Gemaco for defective cards: http://www.flushdraw.net/news/borgata-fires-back-at-cardmaker-gemaco-in-phil-ivey-edge-sorting-case/ http://www.flushdraw.net/news/borgata-fires-back-at-cardmake...)

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

KVFinn 10y ago

>As a game designer, I find casino "games" frustrating It's funny -- I'm as vulnerable as anyone else to a million addictive game mechanics that build on the same impulses that make gambling addictive. But actual real-life casino slot machines just don't work. I need to be like, evaluating the loot drop's fire resistance on a new helmet or whatever for it to be addictive. When you just push a button over and over again with no actual input it's just too obvious you are doing nothing.

jacobush 10y ago
Interesting angle. You need to have your thought processes distracted...
dagw 10y ago
Don't most slot machines these days come with a bunch of extra mini-games and side bets for just this reason. Admittedly I've only watched people play, but there seems to be a whole lot more going on than simply pressing a single button over and over
milesvp 10y ago
I'd bet you're under 35 ;) I've heard several reports that casinos can't get millenials to play slots, and I suspect it's because they're very unsophisticated compared to even the most basic video game.
- AlexDanger 10y ago
  That's interesting, do you work in the industry? Things have come full circle - slot machines paved the way for gamification techniques and IAP. Flashing lights, the sounds, the 'I almost won' near-misses from the big jackpot...all finely tuned to get that dopamine squirting and keep you on the machine. Very Pavlovian. Video games (IAP in particular) are just rehashing the psychological tricks that slot machines have used for decades. Its just the games are newer and offer a bit more depth. I'm sure in good time we'll see more advanced slot machines to entice the smartphone generation.
  - dagw 10y ago
    I'm sure in good time we'll see more advanced slot machines to entice the smartphone generation. Certainly here in Sweden they've short-circuited that entire process by making the slot machines into smartphone apps so that you can play whenever you want without even having to leave the comfort of your own home
- jbob2000 10y ago
  Under 35 casino-goer here. We go every couple months for the cheap booze, free non-alcoholic drinks, and live music. Our group all sits at one machine together and we take turns putting our $5 bills in. We just kinda drunkly chat while one person has a go at trying to win the cost of drinks back. It's pretty fun, cheaper than a bar and much more to do.

mcherm 10y ago

If they were smart grown-ups they would be advertising the hell out of this: there's a lot more than $10 million to be made by allowing players to believe that a sufficiently smart "system" can beat the house. A really smart marketer would realize that a court case like this gets printed up in the newspapers and shared on websites (meta!) and might intentionally try to lose the case in a spectacular fashion.

pc86 10y ago
Yes, then the casino owners would finally be successful! They seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.
pinkrooftop 10y ago
This is the idea behind 100x or 1000x odds in craps. People either won't play that high, or the other -EV play decisions outweigh even massive true odds action
- jly 10y ago
  Yeah, 100x odds is a great marketing move but it isn't that helpful to the average gambler. A game of heads or tails with a fair coin would be the best EV bet in the casino, but it isn't that useful if I need to place a minimum $1000 bet per flip.

imagist 10y ago

Corporations are by nature amoral, only caring about money.

SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
I disagree. That's only really a modern American take on corporations, and even then, you have things like social purpose corporations.
- imagist 10y ago
  The modern American take on a corporation is the existent majority of successful corporations. That's certainly how casinos operate. I'm not saying this is the kind of corporation I want--on the contrary, I despise that such organizations are allowed to exist. But saying that corporations shouldn't act immorally when they can make more money by acting immorally is like saying termites shouldn't eat wood. It's the nature of corporations to seek profit at all cost and if you don't want that, you don't want a corporation, at least in the sense that corporations exist today.
  - SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
    Again, I disagree. That's not how the majority of corporations exist today, nor reflects how most people believe they should operate. It's the behavior of a small percentage of large corporations, largely supported by people like you throwing their hands up and going "well, that's just the way of it!" Expecting corporations to behave ethically is no different than expecting people to behave ethically -- and we should do the same thing about both situations, establish rules and police them. It's nothing at all like termites and wood: it's a voluntary choice made by people, not a biological imperative from an unthinking creature. It's the policing that has collapsed, because people like you have bought the propaganda that we should accept and normalize such behavior from corportations.
    - EdHominem 10y ago
      The laws exist to remove legal culpability. It's not throwing our hands up, it's recognizing the source of the problem. Until we fix the laws, the entire point of a corporation is to diffuse legal responsibility. Yes, it needs to change, but it can't change from the ignorant position that we're fixing leaks and will eventually have a waterproof system. It's intentionally setup to be this way and nothing short of an entire overhauling will fix it.

hash-set 10y ago

Gambling has always been a tax for the mathematically illiterate. Casino gambling has always been a scam and this proves it--whenever someone too clever comes along, they run right to the muscle to get their money back.

nommm-nommm 10y ago
"Tax for the mathematically illiterate" is an mean thing that smug people say to pat themselves on the back and feel smarter than the "peons." It's like saying "people who go to concerts are too stupid to figure out how to buy a CD." Even if you 100% know the odds are nowhere near your favor its possible to get pleasure from the act of putting down a bet, even if you lose. It can be a form of entertainment. I, personally, don't get this pleasure but I can understand other people like different things than me. Whether or not it should be legal, its additive potential is too much of a burden on society, or is ethical is a different question entirely.