8 ms·

I've started to wonder if I'm the only one who isn't understanding the problem in general. The MacBook is fine – the new models are quite expensive, and I'm su

I've started to wonder if I'm the only one who isn't understanding the problem in general. The MacBook is fine – the new models are quite expensive, and I'm sure having to carry some dongles could be annoying, but it's a lovely machine and there are obvious reasons and long-term benefits for those choices. I'll definitely consider purchasing one when the next refresh allows the processor and memory options to be bumped a bit. It's a bit disappointing the the Mac Pro or Mac Mini haven't seen updates, though I expect that's just down to insufficient sales to justify it. The software stack is fine too – I've had minimal problems through multiple machines and macOS versions, and everything seems to be incrementally improving. Meanwhile, I get a pretty good UNIX environment and a pretty good GUI. Cloud services (calendars, reminders, keychains etc.) seem to work pretty reliably, and there are lots of little features that generally work well. I just can't help but feel it's all a little overblown. Sure, look at the alternatives – a nice Dell running Linux, or a Surface or whatever – and if they suit your requirements better, cool! But I just can't see the abrupt, precipitous nosedive that seems to be the current narrative around Apple.

hyperbovine 10y ago
You are right. Nothing else even comes close -- right now. But for the first time in a long time, there's an opening for some smart company to come in deliver the sort of user experience that only Apple (/ Steve) once could. We'll see if it happens or not.
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe it's just the first time that we've started to see products that look like they could threaten Apple's niche – Google's Pixel, or Microsoft's Surface in particular. I guess that's good for everyone really, so long as Apple do respond appropriately.
will_hughes 10y ago
I'm not a Mac user, but having listened to friends who are, their complaints fall into: - so many dongles required (ethernet, Adapters to HDMI, DVI, etc, sdcard readers, USB C to USB A, and another one to get their iPhone to connect) - some of them need to be genuine Apple to get decent performance, and those are all hideously expensive. - lack of ram (tops out at 16GB even on 15" model) - not the best battery life All of this seems to have been sacrificed in the name of thinness. Folks who wanted thin could already get that with the Air / Non-Pro variants.
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  That's an interesting point, and it tallies with what I've heard. I'll give Apple a pass on the RAM, which AFAIK was down to unavailability of Kaby Lake. Probably better to get the machines out, and bump them when Kaby Lake is available. The dongle thing is a worse situation. While I appreciate the steps taken by Apple, it does seem like the whole malarkey could have been avoided with the inclusion of a couple of basically free USB-C to USB-A converters. I reckon the general dongle story is going to be much nicer soon, when there are more multi-port adapters available and more devices (including the iPhone) are supplied with USB-C cables.
  - will_hughes 10y ago
    The ram thing was mainly due to a decision to go with lpddr3, which tops out at 16GB. The argument they put forth was a battery life one. But they made it thinner which reduces the volume available for battery. Also, the dongle complaint is mainly that to use it, you need to carry a bag full of dongles around. Also, thinner laptops than that have had no issues packing a USB-A port in.
evo_9 10y ago
Agree entirely. I actually think the title would be much more accurate if it were changed to *How coverage of Apple has created the Illusion of Apple Alienating Mac Loyalist' because I've been a mac user since the Mac Plus days and I'm pretty much the definition of loyalist, and for me non of this rings true. My new MacBook Pro 13 is a great machine (and I'm a developer...).
rdw 10y ago
I think a lot of Mac users are forgetting how awful the Windows ecosystem still is. One gets used to everything mostly working and think that that's how it is on the other side, too. Meanwhile, one guy I know bought a new Windows laptop to replace his flaky older one. On the new computer, audio doesn't work. Programs load slowly (~10 minutes to start up software that takes 10 seconds for me). It turned out the flakiness of the old laptop wasn't its age or power, it was the software. Lots of folks have stories like this. There's still a huge amount of uncertainty in that world.
- trome 10y ago
  Is his "new" machine using spinning rust for Win10? Cause that is what it sounds like, I don't get why people inflict non-SSD computers on themselves, its just a positively awful experience.
  - rdw 10y ago
    It's an SSD. I suspect there's some sort of middleware that's scanning every file, like antivirus or something. That kinda thing adds up quickly.
    - sosuke 10y ago
      I've had the built in MS antivirus cause problems before but you can whitelist applications if it is causing problems.
- sydd 10y ago
  1. Some Windows PCs are shitty because there are so many choices. You can't expect a Mac pro speed and build quality from a $300 laptop. But you can get Mac pro level build quality and better specs for less from some manufacturers (Microsoft, Dell,..) 2. Windows and any other OS gets laggy is you load it full with crap. On Windows this is easier, since everyone targets you on the web.
  - slededit 10y ago
wklauss 10y ago
> I just can't help but feel it's all a little overblown. Sure, look at the alternatives – a nice Dell running Linux, or a Surface or whatever – and if they suit your requirements better, cool! But I just can't see the abrupt, precipitous nosedive that seems to be the current narrative around Apple. Interestingly enough, Surfaces are actually pretty expensive, especially if you try to upgrade SSD and RAM. Yet, somehow, there doesn't seem to be a big outrage over this. Most of the limitations of the MacBooks, as far as I can tell, seems to come from the fact that Intel processors simply have not advanced much in the last couple of years.
scentedmeat 10y ago
> The MacBook is fine – the new models are quite expensive, and... True, for Macbooks, they are fine. For MacBook Pros however, they are disappointing. They really added nothing, and just took away. And then raised the price.
pfranz 10y ago
Sorry if I rehash the same old points. I think it's easy to knock Apple because of, "what have you done for me lately?" For awhile Apple was making really impressive changes to their laptops every year or two; slotload DVDs were standard, backlit keyboards, a great touchpad, latchless (magnetic) lid, fantastic battery life, magsafe, retina. People would still complain when they dropped a port or got rid of user-swappable batteries or DVD drives--all things that made sense long term, but the pros beat the cons. Recent changes weren't big pros (to me): clickless touchpad, force touch, low-travel keyboard, out of band wifi. It's still weird and frustrating that retina and SSDs aren't standard (when friends and family are looking to buy macs). I also feel like recently they've been jumping in, redesigning and dumbing stuff down, then abandoning it. Disk Utility was fine. Now I have to use the command line or third-party apps for common things. Mac Pro is another example. I'd say Aperture to Photos is another example. I was at the Apple Store today and looked at the new Macbook Pros. Not only is magsafe gone, the LED on magsafe let you know if it was charging and if it was full is gone. I wouldn't care if it was a special USB-C cable that only Apple sold or put it on the chassis. A button that lights up half a dozen LEDs to let you know approximately how empty your battery is no longer there either. Both of those are things were really nice to have. I also really dislike the keyboard. Every single Apple laptop I've bought I've had to replace or upgraded RAM, hard drive, and battery. It sucks when you have a minor issue and your only option is to "replace the logic board." The iPhone or Apple Watch doesn't even come with a USB-C cable. That's quite a few regressions and I'm skeptical if the new things compensate. I think USB-C is an inevitability. I think their problem was holding out so long for new Macbook Pros caused two problems; the expectations were too high because of the wait and they dropped too many ports too quickly for pros. There wouldn't be as large of an outcry about the max RAM if the release from 6 months ago had the same issue or if I could just buy last year's model with 2 USB-C ports and 2 USB-A. Sadly, I don't see anything I like better not made by Apple yet. My plan is to buy a newer, used Macbook Pro and hope I can make the jump at some future update. I'm sure the current laptops are great as-is for many people.

hyperbovine 10y ago

You are right. Nothing else even comes close -- right now. But for the first time in a long time, there's an opening for some smart company to come in deliver the sort of user experience that only Apple (/ Steve) once could. We'll see if it happens or not.

matthewmacleod 10y ago
Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe it's just the first time that we've started to see products that look like they could threaten Apple's niche – Google's Pixel, or Microsoft's Surface in particular. I guess that's good for everyone really, so long as Apple do respond appropriately.

will_hughes 10y ago

I'm not a Mac user, but having listened to friends who are, their complaints fall into: - so many dongles required (ethernet, Adapters to HDMI, DVI, etc, sdcard readers, USB C to USB A, and another one to get their iPhone to connect) - some of them need to be genuine Apple to get decent performance, and those are all hideously expensive. - lack of ram (tops out at 16GB even on 15" model) - not the best battery life All of this seems to have been sacrificed in the name of thinness. Folks who wanted thin could already get that with the Air / Non-Pro variants.

matthewmacleod 10y ago
That's an interesting point, and it tallies with what I've heard. I'll give Apple a pass on the RAM, which AFAIK was down to unavailability of Kaby Lake. Probably better to get the machines out, and bump them when Kaby Lake is available. The dongle thing is a worse situation. While I appreciate the steps taken by Apple, it does seem like the whole malarkey could have been avoided with the inclusion of a couple of basically free USB-C to USB-A converters. I reckon the general dongle story is going to be much nicer soon, when there are more multi-port adapters available and more devices (including the iPhone) are supplied with USB-C cables.
- will_hughes 10y ago
  The ram thing was mainly due to a decision to go with lpddr3, which tops out at 16GB. The argument they put forth was a battery life one. But they made it thinner which reduces the volume available for battery. Also, the dongle complaint is mainly that to use it, you need to carry a bag full of dongles around. Also, thinner laptops than that have had no issues packing a USB-A port in.

evo_9 10y ago

Agree entirely. I actually think the title would be much more accurate if it were changed to *How coverage of Apple has created the Illusion of Apple Alienating Mac Loyalist' because I've been a mac user since the Mac Plus days and I'm pretty much the definition of loyalist, and for me non of this rings true. My new MacBook Pro 13 is a great machine (and I'm a developer...).

rdw 10y ago

I think a lot of Mac users are forgetting how awful the Windows ecosystem still is. One gets used to everything mostly working and think that that's how it is on the other side, too. Meanwhile, one guy I know bought a new Windows laptop to replace his flaky older one. On the new computer, audio doesn't work. Programs load slowly (~10 minutes to start up software that takes 10 seconds for me). It turned out the flakiness of the old laptop wasn't its age or power, it was the software. Lots of folks have stories like this. There's still a huge amount of uncertainty in that world.

trome 10y ago
Is his "new" machine using spinning rust for Win10? Cause that is what it sounds like, I don't get why people inflict non-SSD computers on themselves, its just a positively awful experience.
- rdw 10y ago
  It's an SSD. I suspect there's some sort of middleware that's scanning every file, like antivirus or something. That kinda thing adds up quickly.
  - sosuke 10y ago
    I've had the built in MS antivirus cause problems before but you can whitelist applications if it is causing problems.
sydd 10y ago
1. Some Windows PCs are shitty because there are so many choices. You can't expect a Mac pro speed and build quality from a $300 laptop. But you can get Mac pro level build quality and better specs for less from some manufacturers (Microsoft, Dell,..) 2. Windows and any other OS gets laggy is you load it full with crap. On Windows this is easier, since everyone targets you on the web.
- slededit 10y ago

wklauss 10y ago

> I just can't help but feel it's all a little overblown. Sure, look at the alternatives – a nice Dell running Linux, or a Surface or whatever – and if they suit your requirements better, cool! But I just can't see the abrupt, precipitous nosedive that seems to be the current narrative around Apple. Interestingly enough, Surfaces are actually pretty expensive, especially if you try to upgrade SSD and RAM. Yet, somehow, there doesn't seem to be a big outrage over this. Most of the limitations of the MacBooks, as far as I can tell, seems to come from the fact that Intel processors simply have not advanced much in the last couple of years.

scentedmeat 10y ago

> The MacBook is fine – the new models are quite expensive, and... True, for Macbooks, they are fine. For MacBook Pros however, they are disappointing. They really added nothing, and just took away. And then raised the price.

pfranz 10y ago

Sorry if I rehash the same old points. I think it's easy to knock Apple because of, "what have you done for me lately?" For awhile Apple was making really impressive changes to their laptops every year or two; slotload DVDs were standard, backlit keyboards, a great touchpad, latchless (magnetic) lid, fantastic battery life, magsafe, retina. People would still complain when they dropped a port or got rid of user-swappable batteries or DVD drives--all things that made sense long term, but the pros beat the cons. Recent changes weren't big pros (to me): clickless touchpad, force touch, low-travel keyboard, out of band wifi. It's still weird and frustrating that retina and SSDs aren't standard (when friends and family are looking to buy macs). I also feel like recently they've been jumping in, redesigning and dumbing stuff down, then abandoning it. Disk Utility was fine. Now I have to use the command line or third-party apps for common things. Mac Pro is another example. I'd say Aperture to Photos is another example. I was at the Apple Store today and looked at the new Macbook Pros. Not only is magsafe gone, the LED on magsafe let you know if it was charging and if it was full is gone. I wouldn't care if it was a special USB-C cable that only Apple sold or put it on the chassis. A button that lights up half a dozen LEDs to let you know approximately how empty your battery is no longer there either. Both of those are things were really nice to have. I also really dislike the keyboard. Every single Apple laptop I've bought I've had to replace or upgraded RAM, hard drive, and battery. It sucks when you have a minor issue and your only option is to "replace the logic board." The iPhone or Apple Watch doesn't even come with a USB-C cable. That's quite a few regressions and I'm skeptical if the new things compensate. I think USB-C is an inevitability. I think their problem was holding out so long for new Macbook Pros caused two problems; the expectations were too high because of the wait and they dropped too many ports too quickly for pros. There wouldn't be as large of an outcry about the max RAM if the release from 6 months ago had the same issue or if I could just buy last year's model with 2 USB-C ports and 2 USB-A. Sadly, I don't see anything I like better not made by Apple yet. My plan is to buy a newer, used Macbook Pro and hope I can make the jump at some future update. I'm sure the current laptops are great as-is for many people.