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So if "the citizens", or some subset thereof, are unable to change the system, then they're assume, as a group, to be endorsing the system and its actions? And

So if "the citizens", or some subset thereof, are unable to change the system, then they're assume, as a group, to be endorsing the system and its actions? And to be genuinely represented, indeed manifested, by its officials, even when those officials are aggressively at odds with each other? Remarkable.

Apocryphon 10y ago
There's different degrees of endorsement. There's "agreeing with every jot and thistle of the system's actions" and there's "not trying to violently overthrow the system as bullshit." Most people live somewhere in between, closer to the former position than the latter. Most people want to change the system, but do not dispute the necessity of the system. As such, that means "the state is made of the people" is truer in the consent of the governed sense, and not the dystopian Soylent Green sense. That isn't to say there is no need for large-scale reform and changes; of course there is.
- snrplfth 10y ago
  Of course there's degrees of endorsement, there always is. I'm just responding to the notion of yours that "in a republic, the state is the citizenry." Well, no, it's not, and it doesn't need to be - and indeed, there's no real way for it, in fact, to be so. Certainly, it can represent certain preferences of the citizenry, through various mechanisms and political tools, but the state isn't the citizenry, it's an institution with particular powers and structures. That's not objecting to the concept of endorsement, it's just pointing out the distinction.
  - Apocryphon 10y ago
    It's fair to point out the distinction between the elected representatives (and the unelected appointed civil servants, bureaucrats, etc.) and the citizens who elected them. My original statement was to remind minarchists that ultimately, though, the state is still made up of the people it rules. The libertarian inclination to view the state as an alien, nefarious entity, doesn't lead to much room to improve it. Certainly your distinction is correct.
    - snrplfth 10y ago
      Okay, fair enough. "ultimately, though, the state is still made up of the people it rules." Well, that's one reason why it can be so dangerous. It's made of humans! :)

Apocryphon 10y ago

There's different degrees of endorsement. There's "agreeing with every jot and thistle of the system's actions" and there's "not trying to violently overthrow the system as bullshit." Most people live somewhere in between, closer to the former position than the latter. Most people want to change the system, but do not dispute the necessity of the system. As such, that means "the state is made of the people" is truer in the consent of the governed sense, and not the dystopian Soylent Green sense. That isn't to say there is no need for large-scale reform and changes; of course there is.

snrplfth 10y ago
Of course there's degrees of endorsement, there always is. I'm just responding to the notion of yours that "in a republic, the state is the citizenry." Well, no, it's not, and it doesn't need to be - and indeed, there's no real way for it, in fact, to be so. Certainly, it can represent certain preferences of the citizenry, through various mechanisms and political tools, but the state isn't the citizenry, it's an institution with particular powers and structures. That's not objecting to the concept of endorsement, it's just pointing out the distinction.
- Apocryphon 10y ago
  It's fair to point out the distinction between the elected representatives (and the unelected appointed civil servants, bureaucrats, etc.) and the citizens who elected them. My original statement was to remind minarchists that ultimately, though, the state is still made up of the people it rules. The libertarian inclination to view the state as an alien, nefarious entity, doesn't lead to much room to improve it. Certainly your distinction is correct.
  - snrplfth 10y ago
    Okay, fair enough. "ultimately, though, the state is still made up of the people it rules." Well, that's one reason why it can be so dangerous. It's made of humans! :)