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How does Stephen proof that Jesus rose from the dead? And why does that evidence convince (or not) the Sanhedrin? Remember this is not long after it all happene

by ozy 10y ago

How does Stephen proof that Jesus rose from the dead? And why does that evidence convince (or not) the Sanhedrin? Remember this is not long after it all happened and these are the same men who asked Pilatus for Jesus his execution. People are free to belief what they want. But people behave according to their beliefs. And sometimes when people think they know the truth, they feel justified in limiting other people their freedoms. More so if they think the creator of the universe agrees, and others are sinners. So I look for that "liberal" spark in believers. You clearly have it, and that number is growing, but many christians do not. Many others who belief in unknowable and invisible things are even worse. (Non religious people can also lack it.) As for what I believe: Was Jesus a real person existed, likely. Did he rise from the dead, no. Was his message misunderstood, yes. Part of Jesus his message was, it is not about what you do, but why you do it. It is about your heart. An eternity in heaven or hell are exactly the wrong motivation. I think Jesus meant humanity can go much further if we all follow the golden rule, and are less biased towards foreigners and outcasts. More grace more forgiveness, less judgement. When two or more people cooperate in that way, they can do more. That is the holy spirit, not some supernatural force. And that will bring the "kingdom of heaven" here on earth. It might not feel like it, but we are getting closer to that. How many lepers did god heal? 50 total? Science has healed 5 million. Only after our thinkers had the "liberal" spark, and were less bound by the dogma of religion, did we finally start to make strides into removing human suffering. People forget, but in the time of Jesus, over 50% of children died before they were 15. In the rich areas of this world, it is less then 0.2%, in our poorest countries, it is less then 10%.

milesf 10y ago
I'm thoroughly confused by what you're saying, Ozy. I agree as well that Jesus of Nazareth existed, but the evidence I have examined and gone over and over many times points to a different Jesus than the one you're describing. Here's a summary of the evidence I'm talking about. Tell me what you think: http://www.josh.org/wp-content/uploads/Evidence-For-The-Resurrection.pdf http://www.josh.org/wp-content/uploads/Evidence-For-The-Resu...
- ozy 10y ago
  > Here's a summary of the evidence I'm talking about. And that is our disagreement, my bar for evidence is a lot higher. Literally the doc itself says: "the resurrection of Jesus Christ is either one of the most wicked [..] hoaxes [..] or it is the most remarkable fact of history." If we had proof, it could be only one thing, not two things. And we can rule out one of the two, because we have no evidence of anything supernatural and no indication that people can come back from the dead. (If you can proof either, you can collect a million dollars at the JREF.) So we would need to go with option number one. And how unlikely is that option? I mean people have died for Marxism. Clearly Jesus his teachings were a good message that people thought was important, even at high personal cost. And willing to bend the truth for and exaggerate quite a bit. All very normal human behaviour. Back to Stephen. He did not even try to convince the Sanhedrin. He could have made is story legitimate with proof: remember when Jesus died and the temple veil was torn in half? Remember the sudden darkness? Remember the dead walking in the city? Remember that despite the Roman guards, the grave was empty? See how we can heal the sick and so could Jesus. But he doesn't, because it wouldn't convince the Sanhedrin, because it did not happen. When it comes to the supernatural, we have no grounding, we cannot evaluate the difference between people writing down myths, vs a god spreading misleading propaganda, vs a loving god that you wish to belief in. If belief gives you comfort and perspective in life, good, go for it. But in Saudi Arabia, people kill each other for not wearing headscarfs. And their proof for their beliefs is as good as yours. Namely ungrounded and still at 3: all explained by iron age people writing down their myths and beliefs. And even if there is a supernatural, the biblical descriptions of it are as accurate as when it describes the earth resting on pillars. Thanks you for the discussion. If you have any questions or think I was inaccurate, please let me know. If you have proof, please show me by winning the JREF price. Barring proof, I would suggest you read the bible but cut out anything supernatural. It is still a nice message. Plus just ceasing to exist when you die after having tried to live well is not so bad. Probably preferable to an eternity with a god who, by his own admission, has committed genocide and has no respect for human rights or humane treatment of prisoners.
  - grzm 10y ago
    Looks like the Million Dollar Challenge has been terminated: http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html
milesf 10y ago
As a follow-up to what you're saying: Was Jesus a real person existed, likely. Agreed Did he rise from the dead, no. Disagree. If (and notice I'm using the 'if' proposition) there is a God, who created everything, it would be trivial for Him to raise Himself from the dead. Like I mentioned before, if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is moot and should not be followed. This is the singular point in human history that has a binary answer with eternal implications. Was his message misunderstood, yes. Agreed. In fact there are many other christs and gospels (2 Corinthians 11:4). No one counterfeits worthless things, but if (there's that 'if' proposition again) Jesus is who He claimed to be, then what He offers is the most valuable thing in all of human history: Eternal life. Immortality. To be in God's Family and be owners of _everything_, not just all the stuff on earth, but everything in the universe. Part of Jesus his message was, it is not about what you do, but why you do it. It is about your heart. Agreed. Amen. An eternity in heaven or hell are exactly the wrong motivation. Food for thought. I'll need to chew on this one for a bit. I think Jesus meant humanity can go much further if we all follow the golden rule, and are less biased towards foreigners and outcasts. More grace more forgiveness, less judgement. When two or more people cooperate in that way, they can do more. Agreed, although this is generally covered in the Old Testament as well. The problem is not should people get along, but the problem is _why_ people don't get along. The Bible calls this thing 'sin'. We all sin. The proof is in the fact that even if you are not a Christian, we all have things we believe to be right and wrong. And yet, we still choose to do things that we know are wrong! Jesus died for our sins, and He gives us power to live new lives in freedom. That is the holy spirit, not some supernatural force. Disagree. The Holy Spirit is a person, just as Jesus is a person and the Father are a person. Three persons, one God. Do I understand that? No. Can I apprehend it? Yes. And that will bring the "kingdom of heaven" here on earth. It might not feel like it, but we are getting closer to that. How many lepers did god heal? 50 total? Science has healed 5 million. You forget one glaring fact: 100% of those lepers 'healed' by science all die. In fact at some point, all human life will die. Then what? What's the point? Just keep asking yourself that question "then what". You are born. Then what? You go to school. Then what? You get a job Then what? You (get married | stay single | become successful | etc) Then what? You get old. Then what? You die. Then what? Then what? No, seriously, then what? My atheist friends say "nothing, you just cease to exist". Okay, so why bother? Before I am born I am insignificant, and after I die I am insignificant, but somehow between life and death I have significance?! The Bible talks about our lives as being a vapour (James 4:14). When you made your tea/coffee this morning, and a vapour 'birthed' from the surface, rose up then disappeared, was that event significant? Without meaning and significance life is a cruel joke! It is absurd! You may have superficial meaning between birth and death, but _ultimate_ meaning? No. Been there, done that. Just keep asking yourself those two words "then what" and you'll reach the end of yourself and your reasoning in complete despair. But there is hope. To know Jesus, personally! I do! I know you probably don't believe me, but it's because He lives I can face tomorrow. Because He lives all fear is gone. And I know He holds the future, and life is worth the living just because He lives. If Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead, then my hope dies too. The great mathematician Blaise Pascal condensed it into a simple wager: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

by ozy 10y ago

milesf 10y ago

I'm thoroughly confused by what you're saying, Ozy. I agree as well that Jesus of Nazareth existed, but the evidence I have examined and gone over and over many times points to a different Jesus than the one you're describing. Here's a summary of the evidence I'm talking about. Tell me what you think: http://www.josh.org/wp-content/uploads/Evidence-For-The-Resurrection.pdf http://www.josh.org/wp-content/uploads/Evidence-For-The-Resu...

ozy 10y ago
> Here's a summary of the evidence I'm talking about. And that is our disagreement, my bar for evidence is a lot higher. Literally the doc itself says: "the resurrection of Jesus Christ is either one of the most wicked [..] hoaxes [..] or it is the most remarkable fact of history." If we had proof, it could be only one thing, not two things. And we can rule out one of the two, because we have no evidence of anything supernatural and no indication that people can come back from the dead. (If you can proof either, you can collect a million dollars at the JREF.) So we would need to go with option number one. And how unlikely is that option? I mean people have died for Marxism. Clearly Jesus his teachings were a good message that people thought was important, even at high personal cost. And willing to bend the truth for and exaggerate quite a bit. All very normal human behaviour. Back to Stephen. He did not even try to convince the Sanhedrin. He could have made is story legitimate with proof: remember when Jesus died and the temple veil was torn in half? Remember the sudden darkness? Remember the dead walking in the city? Remember that despite the Roman guards, the grave was empty? See how we can heal the sick and so could Jesus. But he doesn't, because it wouldn't convince the Sanhedrin, because it did not happen. When it comes to the supernatural, we have no grounding, we cannot evaluate the difference between people writing down myths, vs a god spreading misleading propaganda, vs a loving god that you wish to belief in. If belief gives you comfort and perspective in life, good, go for it. But in Saudi Arabia, people kill each other for not wearing headscarfs. And their proof for their beliefs is as good as yours. Namely ungrounded and still at 3: all explained by iron age people writing down their myths and beliefs. And even if there is a supernatural, the biblical descriptions of it are as accurate as when it describes the earth resting on pillars. Thanks you for the discussion. If you have any questions or think I was inaccurate, please let me know. If you have proof, please show me by winning the JREF price. Barring proof, I would suggest you read the bible but cut out anything supernatural. It is still a nice message. Plus just ceasing to exist when you die after having tried to live well is not so bad. Probably preferable to an eternity with a god who, by his own admission, has committed genocide and has no respect for human rights or humane treatment of prisoners.
- grzm 10y ago
  Looks like the Million Dollar Challenge has been terminated: http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html

milesf 10y ago

As a follow-up to what you're saying: Was Jesus a real person existed, likely. Agreed Did he rise from the dead, no. Disagree. If (and notice I'm using the 'if' proposition) there is a God, who created everything, it would be trivial for Him to raise Himself from the dead. Like I mentioned before, if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is moot and should not be followed. This is the singular point in human history that has a binary answer with eternal implications. Was his message misunderstood, yes. Agreed. In fact there are many other christs and gospels (2 Corinthians 11:4). No one counterfeits worthless things, but if (there's that 'if' proposition again) Jesus is who He claimed to be, then what He offers is the most valuable thing in all of human history: Eternal life. Immortality. To be in God's Family and be owners of _everything_, not just all the stuff on earth, but everything in the universe. Part of Jesus his message was, it is not about what you do, but why you do it. It is about your heart. Agreed. Amen. An eternity in heaven or hell are exactly the wrong motivation. Food for thought. I'll need to chew on this one for a bit. I think Jesus meant humanity can go much further if we all follow the golden rule, and are less biased towards foreigners and outcasts. More grace more forgiveness, less judgement. When two or more people cooperate in that way, they can do more. Agreed, although this is generally covered in the Old Testament as well. The problem is not should people get along, but the problem is _why_ people don't get along. The Bible calls this thing 'sin'. We all sin. The proof is in the fact that even if you are not a Christian, we all have things we believe to be right and wrong. And yet, we still choose to do things that we know are wrong! Jesus died for our sins, and He gives us power to live new lives in freedom. That is the holy spirit, not some supernatural force. Disagree. The Holy Spirit is a person, just as Jesus is a person and the Father are a person. Three persons, one God. Do I understand that? No. Can I apprehend it? Yes. And that will bring the "kingdom of heaven" here on earth. It might not feel like it, but we are getting closer to that. How many lepers did god heal? 50 total? Science has healed 5 million. You forget one glaring fact: 100% of those lepers 'healed' by science all die. In fact at some point, all human life will die. Then what? What's the point? Just keep asking yourself that question "then what". You are born. Then what? You go to school. Then what? You get a job Then what? You (get married | stay single | become successful | etc) Then what? You get old. Then what? You die. Then what? Then what? No, seriously, then what? My atheist friends say "nothing, you just cease to exist". Okay, so why bother? Before I am born I am insignificant, and after I die I am insignificant, but somehow between life and death I have significance?! The Bible talks about our lives as being a vapour (James 4:14). When you made your tea/coffee this morning, and a vapour 'birthed' from the surface, rose up then disappeared, was that event significant? Without meaning and significance life is a cruel joke! It is absurd! You may have superficial meaning between birth and death, but _ultimate_ meaning? No. Been there, done that. Just keep asking yourself those two words "then what" and you'll reach the end of yourself and your reasoning in complete despair. But there is hope. To know Jesus, personally! I do! I know you probably don't believe me, but it's because He lives I can face tomorrow. Because He lives all fear is gone. And I know He holds the future, and life is worth the living just because He lives. If Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead, then my hope dies too. The great mathematician Blaise Pascal condensed it into a simple wager: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager