5 ms·

What is the sort of mayhem we can expect to see on the IT side of this transistion? It seems like there is already a ton of infrastructure in place for them to

What is the sort of mayhem we can expect to see on the IT side of this transistion? It seems like there is already a ton of infrastructure in place for them to deal with the dynamic nature of their current calendar, so how do they move to the Gregorian without tripping overthemselves? (Never mind the cultural hurt that will follow, though I'm not sure why they're losing holidays - wouldn't those just follow under different Gregorian days, like Easter does?)

mmastrac 10y ago
This is probably a display/input change more than anything. There are probably some systems using the lunar calendar internally, but most are probably storing UTC timestamps and converting on the way in and out.
SloopJon 10y ago
I tested support for the Islamic (Hijri) calendar last year. The tabular variant can be handled at the locale level for the most part. The observed variant, on the other hand, is a bit of pain, as it depends on whether someone claims to have seen the new crescent moon (hilal). Since a lot of people depend on Saudi observations, I imagine this will be influential. People grumble about Saudi Arabia, but they set the trends. They're kind of like California that way.
- HCIdivision17 10y ago
  I had no idea there was that sort of requirement - I guess I had just assumed it was systemized. It sounds fascinating - are there ever conflicts that need to be resolved?
  - amerkhalid 10y ago
    All the time. You will see Muslims in a same city celebrating same festival a day apart. I think some serious Muslims get into arguments but most people just enjoy an extra day of festivities.
    - HCIdivision17 10y ago
      I have long held that there aren't any good solutions to the date/time issue (like naming things and cache invalidation :), other than just find some way to hitch to UTC, but you've shown me a case that just... wow. I can't imagine trying to make a computer system integrate with that style of timekeeping. Is there any hope? Or is it actually the solution to give up and switch to something a bit easier like the Gregorian calendar (or whatever)?
      - amerkhalid 10y ago
        I think most of the Muslims have already given up and follow Gregorian calendar for all purposes but religious holidays. I grew up in Saudi Arabia and I can tell you that no one ever knew current month in Hijri calendar unless it was Ramadan or Muharram (1st month).
      - gumby 10y ago
        > wow. I can't imagine trying to make a computer system integrate with that style of timekeeping. I don't mean to harsh on you but I feel you have it completely backwards. The computers should do the heavy lifting to adapt to how people want to live, not the other way around. If people want flexible calendars that optimize for strange things let the computers do the heavy lifting for them. I have been quite sorry when countries have attacked their languages or even alphabets in a misguided way to support computers (consider the letters ll and ch in Spain which were "reformed" just in time for the "improvement" to become irrelevant) when the responsibility lies with the computer. This is not only a computer issue: cities and suburbs were restructured for automobiles, and even the law changed (the invention of "jaywalking" at the behest of car manufacturers) rather than forcing the machines to adapt to the needs of humans. Technodeterminism is simply a weakness of will.
        lemmings19 10y ago
        You suggest making absolutely no compromises in order to move technology forward? Not everything we do is without question; we do some pretty dumb stuff. Why not improve our systems where it makes sense to?
  - a3n 10y ago
    What is a day, when does it start and end, etc, have various definitions around the world and in history. https://books.google.com/books/about/Calendrical_Calculations_Millennium_Edit.html?id=5r_kSKE4OdYC https://books.google.com/books/about/Calendrical_Calculation... Calendrical Calculations is a fascinating intro the different calendar systems, along with computational methods of converting between systems.
  - wolf550e 10y ago
    This is the same as the early Jewish calendar. The Jewish calendar has adjustments to make it not fully lunar, so that holidays would be during the same season every year, unlike in the simpler Muslim calendar which is fully lunar. The bible says the new moon must be observed, but the formula for the calendar was calculated in 389CE and that requirement was not observed. I was taught they switched to the calculated calendar right then, but wikipedia says newer sources show the switch was a gradual process that lasted until the 9th century CE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_II
- midhunsezhi 10y ago
  TIL that people grumble about California.
XaspR8d 10y ago
> I'm not sure why they're losing holidays - wouldn't those just follow under different Gregorian days, like Easter does? If you're referring to the "extra 11 days", it doesn't have anything to do with losing holidays -- the solar calendar is simply 11 days longer than the lunar one. So in other words, it's a silly complaint. Though I suppose if you earned a yearly salary on the lunar calendar and your employer gave you the same salary on the solar calendar, you'd be taking a 3% pay cut.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  It actually is losing holidays; if you have the same number of holidays per year, but more total days per year, you are losing holidays.
  - Declanomous 10y ago
    It sounds like the holidays that rotate around the year are Islamic Holy days though. Even countries that use the Gregorian calendar have holidays based on the Lunar calendar -- Easter for instance. > A slippery slope, the clergy warn, to forgetting the fasting month of Ramadan altogether; the authorities are rewinding the clock to the jahiliyyah, or pre-Islamic age of ignorance. This seems to indicate that larger issue is the fact that the current calendar is inextricably tied to Islam, whereas the new calendar is secular at best, or the tool of a different religion at worst.
    - kefka 10y ago
      I would heartily agree that the Gregorian calendar is very much a Christian creation. Named after the Gregorian Monks. I honestly would prefer something based on a shared solar event. The Crab Nebula and supernova in 1088 ACE would be a good neutral place, as would other events, like Halley's Comet. It would be secular, and sold to the world as such. But it would put the focus on solar events, in which any number of peoples can use as an omen for their local system of religion and symbolism. Can't win everything here, but neutrality is certainly a laudable goal. (Edit: wow, quite a bit of -1's, and no real good reason why. I was hoping for a good neutral dialogue, rather than bemoaning current date systems. And also, it may have been Pope Gregory. It still is bound to the Catholic church.)

mmastrac 10y ago

This is probably a display/input change more than anything. There are probably some systems using the lunar calendar internally, but most are probably storing UTC timestamps and converting on the way in and out.

SloopJon 10y ago

I tested support for the Islamic (Hijri) calendar last year. The tabular variant can be handled at the locale level for the most part. The observed variant, on the other hand, is a bit of pain, as it depends on whether someone claims to have seen the new crescent moon (hilal). Since a lot of people depend on Saudi observations, I imagine this will be influential. People grumble about Saudi Arabia, but they set the trends. They're kind of like California that way.

HCIdivision17 10y ago
I had no idea there was that sort of requirement - I guess I had just assumed it was systemized. It sounds fascinating - are there ever conflicts that need to be resolved?
- amerkhalid 10y ago
  All the time. You will see Muslims in a same city celebrating same festival a day apart. I think some serious Muslims get into arguments but most people just enjoy an extra day of festivities.
  - HCIdivision17 10y ago
    I have long held that there aren't any good solutions to the date/time issue (like naming things and cache invalidation :), other than just find some way to hitch to UTC, but you've shown me a case that just... wow. I can't imagine trying to make a computer system integrate with that style of timekeeping. Is there any hope? Or is it actually the solution to give up and switch to something a bit easier like the Gregorian calendar (or whatever)?
    - amerkhalid 10y ago
      I think most of the Muslims have already given up and follow Gregorian calendar for all purposes but religious holidays. I grew up in Saudi Arabia and I can tell you that no one ever knew current month in Hijri calendar unless it was Ramadan or Muharram (1st month).
    - gumby 10y ago
      > wow. I can't imagine trying to make a computer system integrate with that style of timekeeping. I don't mean to harsh on you but I feel you have it completely backwards. The computers should do the heavy lifting to adapt to how people want to live, not the other way around. If people want flexible calendars that optimize for strange things let the computers do the heavy lifting for them. I have been quite sorry when countries have attacked their languages or even alphabets in a misguided way to support computers (consider the letters ll and ch in Spain which were "reformed" just in time for the "improvement" to become irrelevant) when the responsibility lies with the computer. This is not only a computer issue: cities and suburbs were restructured for automobiles, and even the law changed (the invention of "jaywalking" at the behest of car manufacturers) rather than forcing the machines to adapt to the needs of humans. Technodeterminism is simply a weakness of will.
      - lemmings19 10y ago
        You suggest making absolutely no compromises in order to move technology forward? Not everything we do is without question; we do some pretty dumb stuff. Why not improve our systems where it makes sense to?
- a3n 10y ago
  What is a day, when does it start and end, etc, have various definitions around the world and in history. https://books.google.com/books/about/Calendrical_Calculations_Millennium_Edit.html?id=5r_kSKE4OdYC https://books.google.com/books/about/Calendrical_Calculation... Calendrical Calculations is a fascinating intro the different calendar systems, along with computational methods of converting between systems.
- wolf550e 10y ago
  This is the same as the early Jewish calendar. The Jewish calendar has adjustments to make it not fully lunar, so that holidays would be during the same season every year, unlike in the simpler Muslim calendar which is fully lunar. The bible says the new moon must be observed, but the formula for the calendar was calculated in 389CE and that requirement was not observed. I was taught they switched to the calculated calendar right then, but wikipedia says newer sources show the switch was a gradual process that lasted until the 9th century CE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_II
midhunsezhi 10y ago
TIL that people grumble about California.

XaspR8d 10y ago

> I'm not sure why they're losing holidays - wouldn't those just follow under different Gregorian days, like Easter does? If you're referring to the "extra 11 days", it doesn't have anything to do with losing holidays -- the solar calendar is simply 11 days longer than the lunar one. So in other words, it's a silly complaint. Though I suppose if you earned a yearly salary on the lunar calendar and your employer gave you the same salary on the solar calendar, you'd be taking a 3% pay cut.

dragonwriter 10y ago
It actually is losing holidays; if you have the same number of holidays per year, but more total days per year, you are losing holidays.
- Declanomous 10y ago
  It sounds like the holidays that rotate around the year are Islamic Holy days though. Even countries that use the Gregorian calendar have holidays based on the Lunar calendar -- Easter for instance. > A slippery slope, the clergy warn, to forgetting the fasting month of Ramadan altogether; the authorities are rewinding the clock to the jahiliyyah, or pre-Islamic age of ignorance. This seems to indicate that larger issue is the fact that the current calendar is inextricably tied to Islam, whereas the new calendar is secular at best, or the tool of a different religion at worst.
  - kefka 10y ago
    I would heartily agree that the Gregorian calendar is very much a Christian creation. Named after the Gregorian Monks. I honestly would prefer something based on a shared solar event. The Crab Nebula and supernova in 1088 ACE would be a good neutral place, as would other events, like Halley's Comet. It would be secular, and sold to the world as such. But it would put the focus on solar events, in which any number of peoples can use as an omen for their local system of religion and symbolism. Can't win everything here, but neutrality is certainly a laudable goal. (Edit: wow, quite a bit of -1's, and no real good reason why. I was hoping for a good neutral dialogue, rather than bemoaning current date systems. And also, it may have been Pope Gregory. It still is bound to the Catholic church.)