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>As an aside I always kind of wondered why all browsers started including developer tools by default as they are not of use to 99.9% of users. Maybe because it'

>As an aside I always kind of wondered why all browsers started including developer tools by default as they are not of use to 99.9% of users. Maybe because it's just easier than making them optional extensions? Does anyone know about what year this started? This is total conjecture but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with competitive advantage. The best browsers to develop for have a better chance to become the browsers of choice because when things were less standardized (or browsers adhered to standards less) webpages could run better in one browser than another (if they even worked in multiple browsers at all). IE kind of breaks that theory but they had other ways to push IE that did not depend on quality or ease of development.

nommm-nommm 10y ago
Good point, less development friction gets web developers to "sign up" for your browser. Web developers who are using your browser to develop make sites that work well in your browser! This makes perfect sense! I can't believe I didn't think of that. Personally, I absolutely love that developer tools are included in all browsers. I think its absolutely fantastic, just surprising to me it ended up that way.
- radicalbyte 10y ago
  It's basic marketing, appeal to the thought leaders. It's how Google marketed Chrome. The other vendors were just playing catch-up, especially Microsoft. Plus it was handy for their own devs and aligned with their strategy (make the web awesome because more web is more Google ads).
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- chriswarbo 10y ago
  > Personally, I absolutely love that developer tools are included in all browsers. I think its absolutely fantastic, just surprising to me it ended up that way. Only one of the browsers I regularly use contains dev tools (Firefox); there are no dev tools built in to w3m, dillo, conkeror or lynx. There were also no dev tools in eww, w3, konqueror, arora, midori, links, elinks or netsurf last time I used them. In fact, I've only ever seen dev tools in two browsers, Firefox and Chromium, although my observations are biased since I only use Free Software ;)
  - blowski 10y ago
    You sound like a bit of an edge case.
    - chriswarbo 10y ago
      For what? Firefox DevTools? I use Firefox, spent several years as a Web dev, and use FireBug pretty much every day, so I think I'm part of the core demographic. That's unrelated to my use of other browsers though: right tool for the right job, and all that. The parent just-so-happened to make a tangential comment about "all browsers" bundling dev tools, which I found quite short-sighted. If you're QA testing a commericial Web site then by all means use "all browsers" as a shorthand for "the popular browsers". But if you're commenting on the general development of browsers and their features, such statements need to be qualified. After all, there are some good sibling comments discussing WorldWideWeb, Netscape, etc. Should they be dismissed as "edge cases"? Maybe instead of listing the software I actually use, I could have taken a guess at how many mobile browsers lack dev tools; I imagine there are many users of such browsers, which is far from an "edge case", although I avoided making such conjectures since I've never browsed the Web on a mobile phone.
  - jasoncchild 10y ago
    This is interesting; why dev tools are not seen in these FOSS offerings?
    - chriswarbo 10y ago
      Some want to be small and lightweight, e.g. Dillo, so I can imagine them rejecting such features altogether. Others don't have features like DOM, Javascript, etc. so there's not much they could offer that "view source" doesn't already do. Others don't have a suitable interaction model, e.g. w3m is effectively a pager for turning HTML into ANSI escape codes; conkeror is keyboard driven so would need a radically different UI for it to be effective; etc. Others, like Netsurf, Konqueror and the Webkit wrappers (Midori, Arora, etc.) would probably like a dev tools feature, but don't have enough developer power to implement one.
  - 10y ago
irrational 10y ago
There might be some truth to this. I use Firefox as my primary browser (despite everyone I talk to from my co-developers to my teenagers expressing shock that I don't use Chrome since "everyone" uses Chrome) because I use Firebug. I've tried using the Chrome developer tools a few times, but I'm so productive in Firebug from long years of use that I just can't get used to it. Maybe now I'll be forced to do so :-(
mercer 10y ago
I'm pretty sure competitive advantage plays a role. Looking at myself and most front-end devs I meet, we tend to use Chrome as a primary browser in part because of the dev tools. In my case I remember there was a point where I preferred Chrome's dev tools over Firefox' built-in dev tools as well as Firebug, and that played a role in my use of Chrome as a primary browser. Things may have changed, but here I am still using Chrome. The downside is that I need to remind myself to properly test in Firefox and Safari and, to my shame, it has happened that I entirely forgot and the testing department ended up being that reminder. Also, Could it be that another reason for dev tools' existence might be that browser developers use it themselves?

nommm-nommm 10y ago

Good point, less development friction gets web developers to "sign up" for your browser. Web developers who are using your browser to develop make sites that work well in your browser! This makes perfect sense! I can't believe I didn't think of that. Personally, I absolutely love that developer tools are included in all browsers. I think its absolutely fantastic, just surprising to me it ended up that way.

radicalbyte 10y ago
It's basic marketing, appeal to the thought leaders. It's how Google marketed Chrome. The other vendors were just playing catch-up, especially Microsoft. Plus it was handy for their own devs and aligned with their strategy (make the web awesome because more web is more Google ads).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
chriswarbo 10y ago
> Personally, I absolutely love that developer tools are included in all browsers. I think its absolutely fantastic, just surprising to me it ended up that way. Only one of the browsers I regularly use contains dev tools (Firefox); there are no dev tools built in to w3m, dillo, conkeror or lynx. There were also no dev tools in eww, w3, konqueror, arora, midori, links, elinks or netsurf last time I used them. In fact, I've only ever seen dev tools in two browsers, Firefox and Chromium, although my observations are biased since I only use Free Software ;)
- blowski 10y ago
  You sound like a bit of an edge case.
  - chriswarbo 10y ago
    For what? Firefox DevTools? I use Firefox, spent several years as a Web dev, and use FireBug pretty much every day, so I think I'm part of the core demographic. That's unrelated to my use of other browsers though: right tool for the right job, and all that. The parent just-so-happened to make a tangential comment about "all browsers" bundling dev tools, which I found quite short-sighted. If you're QA testing a commericial Web site then by all means use "all browsers" as a shorthand for "the popular browsers". But if you're commenting on the general development of browsers and their features, such statements need to be qualified. After all, there are some good sibling comments discussing WorldWideWeb, Netscape, etc. Should they be dismissed as "edge cases"? Maybe instead of listing the software I actually use, I could have taken a guess at how many mobile browsers lack dev tools; I imagine there are many users of such browsers, which is far from an "edge case", although I avoided making such conjectures since I've never browsed the Web on a mobile phone.
- jasoncchild 10y ago
  This is interesting; why dev tools are not seen in these FOSS offerings?
  - chriswarbo 10y ago
    Some want to be small and lightweight, e.g. Dillo, so I can imagine them rejecting such features altogether. Others don't have features like DOM, Javascript, etc. so there's not much they could offer that "view source" doesn't already do. Others don't have a suitable interaction model, e.g. w3m is effectively a pager for turning HTML into ANSI escape codes; conkeror is keyboard driven so would need a radically different UI for it to be effective; etc. Others, like Netsurf, Konqueror and the Webkit wrappers (Midori, Arora, etc.) would probably like a dev tools feature, but don't have enough developer power to implement one.
- 10y ago

irrational 10y ago

There might be some truth to this. I use Firefox as my primary browser (despite everyone I talk to from my co-developers to my teenagers expressing shock that I don't use Chrome since "everyone" uses Chrome) because I use Firebug. I've tried using the Chrome developer tools a few times, but I'm so productive in Firebug from long years of use that I just can't get used to it. Maybe now I'll be forced to do so :-(

mercer 10y ago

I'm pretty sure competitive advantage plays a role. Looking at myself and most front-end devs I meet, we tend to use Chrome as a primary browser in part because of the dev tools. In my case I remember there was a point where I preferred Chrome's dev tools over Firefox' built-in dev tools as well as Firebug, and that played a role in my use of Chrome as a primary browser. Things may have changed, but here I am still using Chrome. The downside is that I need to remind myself to properly test in Firefox and Safari and, to my shame, it has happened that I entirely forgot and the testing department ended up being that reminder. Also, Could it be that another reason for dev tools' existence might be that browser developers use it themselves?