6 ms·

I do not agree. It is not about magic, it's about neglecting the user group that made them rich in the first place. Apple actually stopped making pro hardware.

by d3ckard 10y ago

I do not agree. It is not about magic, it's about neglecting the user group that made them rich in the first place. Apple actually stopped making pro hardware. They're unpredictable when it comes to upgrades(15 Retina ethernal Haswell, 2013 Mac Pro, even iMacs), they do not seem to have an idea how the platform should evolve and they're obsessed with thinness, while in the pro market performance and battery life are vastly more important. Last but not least, their recent idea of progress is gimmicky touch bar and emoticons everywhere. Sorry, it just does not fit. Add to it degrading software quality (iOS10 sucks, MacOS just got rid of battery prediction, because they couldn't work with new processors - come on!), frozen progress on software front in general and there is not much left. Currently Apple is a company sitting on an extremely large pile of cash and they have not idea what to do with it. Not sexy at all.

adamlett 10y ago
It was not the pro users who made Apple rich. It was the consumers buying iPods, and later iPhones. Pro users are at the same time extremely demanding and extremely conservative. Apple has never done much to cater to that market, and the fact that they have so many pro users these days is a happy accident which has more to do with how awful these people used to be treated when they were Windows users, and not a lot to do with anything Apple did specifically for their sake. Apple doesn't care about pro users, whom they rightly consider demanding and ungrateful. Apple cares about ordinary people, the ones lots of pro users talk about often in the most condescending of manners. Apple's mission has always been to make computing accessible to the masses (remember the slogan: "The computer for the rest of us"?), not to make it better for the elite few who already know how to use one.
- scholia 10y ago
  > Apple's mission has always been to make computing accessible to the masses (remember the slogan: "The computer for the rest of us"?), not to make it better for the elite few who already know how to use one. Except the masses buy Windows 10 laptops that cost $199 or whatever. The Mac has never been "accessible to the masses" because they won't pay Apple's prosumer prices...
  - adamlett 10y ago
    The world is not divided into rich tech elites who can afford the best, and uneducated, poor people whose only hope to join the tech revolution is buying the cheapest of the cheap. There is a huge segment in between. It's true that Macs have never been the cheapest, but many, many ordinary people buy them none the less. Why? Maybe because a lot of people need a computer, but hate using it. So they choose to spend a little more to get one that is a little less user hostile. That doesn't make them feel dumb. Maybe even delights them from time to time by the many small considerations its designers have made for them.
    - scholia 10y ago
      > many, many ordinary people buy them none the less. True, but Windows still has around 90% (or more) of the global PC market. Windows actually brought computing to the masses. Apple didn't.
      - adamlett 10y ago
        We are using the same words to mean different things. When I say accessible, I mean approachable and usable, whereas you seem to mean affordable. When I say the masses, I mean in contrast to the elite, whereas you mean the overwhelming majority.
        scholia 10y ago
        Windows is approachable. MacOS isn't significantly different, in terms of usability, for the majority of the non-computerate public. And however you define it, the fact is that Windows did bring computing to the masses and Apple didn't.
    - lostboys67 10y ago
      And you think finder is less hostile than file manger on windows?
  - Jgrubb 10y ago
    I suppose it depends on which masses you're referring to, but when I look around at any public place in New Jersey where there are people on laptops, I always see a very healthy representation of Mac users. Of all ages.
- bunderbunder 10y ago
  I think that the more "pro" market might overestimate its own representativeness. Sure you can go to a tech meetup and see a sea of glowing Apple logos, but dominance in a relatively small portion of the market is still a small chunk of market share.
- d3ckard 10y ago
  I said that pro users made them rich, I didn't say that they had done it by buying stuff. Apple has been reaping rewards from the pro market for years. It's been those pro users who have been advocating the platform among friends and family. It's been those pro users who have been the perfect subject for those marketing campaigns showing how awesome new products are. It's been those pro users who write tech blogs and make the noise about Apple. It's been those pro users who made the brand what it is. I'm not saying that pro users directly bring cash to Apple (they do that too - look at the number of computers IBM is buying and tell me it's not because of those pro users who made mac the ultimate development plaftorm). The point is, Apple was using the pro users as their market driver, creating positive buzz and actually telling people about the alternative (out of US Macs never been that popular). Also, basically any pro user is better for making an ad than normal user - normal users use stuff that's available in the browser everywhere. Pro market does not have to be the main one for Apple. It has probably never been. The problem is that with pro users you lose a ton of market influence and its going to happen. The proof is in the article - Tim Cook would not bother to comment on the subject unless it was actually important. And it is important. Apple was always about the ecosystem. If they break the ecosystem, they will fail. Right now it does not look to good for them in the long run.
  - adamlett 10y ago
    If you believe pro users have that kind of clout, you are delusional. The iPod most certainly didn't succeed because it was endorsed by pro users, nor did the iPhone. In fact the reaction from the pro market to those products when they were introduced, was one of dismissal ('No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame'). These products succeeded on their own merits by being fantastic products and -- to a lesser extend -- on the strength of Apple's brand and marketing. The halo effect from these two products is largely responsible for the success the Mac has enjoyed in recent history.
    - greedo 10y ago
      I hardly believe that CmdrTaco's reaction on Slashdot to the iPod is indicative in any way of how the "pro market" responded to the iPod or iPhone.
- pka 10y ago
  I've heard that argument dozens of times, but I really can't understand it. The App Store has millions of apps. Who created those apps, if not pro users? Without the App Store, who would buy iPhones, iPads and iPods? If Apple shit on the pro users they shit on themselves.
  - adamlett 10y ago
    Pro users are a more diverse group than just app developers. My impression is that app developers are not the ones who feel poorly served by Apple's current hardware lineup[1]. Which is not to say that app developers don't have other legitimate grievances with Apple. [1] I know, I know; the disappearing of the escape key and the function keys affects everyone! Whatever will we all do?
utexaspunk 10y ago
I have to say Microsoft really nailed it with the Surface Studio (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-stud...). It's what Apple would have made already if they were "committed to the desktop" and wanted to stay true to their roots as the computer for creative work. They out-Appled Apple. Including the price, unfortunately.
slantyyz 10y ago
>> it's about neglecting the user group that made them rich in the first place. Well, times have changed. Apple is servicing the user group that is making them ultra rich now. I'm not a big fan of the direction they've taken, but I also don't blame them for it.

by d3ckard 10y ago

adamlett 10y ago

It was not the pro users who made Apple rich. It was the consumers buying iPods, and later iPhones. Pro users are at the same time extremely demanding and extremely conservative. Apple has never done much to cater to that market, and the fact that they have so many pro users these days is a happy accident which has more to do with how awful these people used to be treated when they were Windows users, and not a lot to do with anything Apple did specifically for their sake. Apple doesn't care about pro users, whom they rightly consider demanding and ungrateful. Apple cares about ordinary people, the ones lots of pro users talk about often in the most condescending of manners. Apple's mission has always been to make computing accessible to the masses (remember the slogan: "The computer for the rest of us"?), not to make it better for the elite few who already know how to use one.

scholia 10y ago
> Apple's mission has always been to make computing accessible to the masses (remember the slogan: "The computer for the rest of us"?), not to make it better for the elite few who already know how to use one. Except the masses buy Windows 10 laptops that cost $199 or whatever. The Mac has never been "accessible to the masses" because they won't pay Apple's prosumer prices...
- adamlett 10y ago
  The world is not divided into rich tech elites who can afford the best, and uneducated, poor people whose only hope to join the tech revolution is buying the cheapest of the cheap. There is a huge segment in between. It's true that Macs have never been the cheapest, but many, many ordinary people buy them none the less. Why? Maybe because a lot of people need a computer, but hate using it. So they choose to spend a little more to get one that is a little less user hostile. That doesn't make them feel dumb. Maybe even delights them from time to time by the many small considerations its designers have made for them.
  - scholia 10y ago
    > many, many ordinary people buy them none the less. True, but Windows still has around 90% (or more) of the global PC market. Windows actually brought computing to the masses. Apple didn't.
    - adamlett 10y ago
      We are using the same words to mean different things. When I say accessible, I mean approachable and usable, whereas you seem to mean affordable. When I say the masses, I mean in contrast to the elite, whereas you mean the overwhelming majority.
      - scholia 10y ago
        Windows is approachable. MacOS isn't significantly different, in terms of usability, for the majority of the non-computerate public. And however you define it, the fact is that Windows did bring computing to the masses and Apple didn't.
  - lostboys67 10y ago
    And you think finder is less hostile than file manger on windows?
- Jgrubb 10y ago
  I suppose it depends on which masses you're referring to, but when I look around at any public place in New Jersey where there are people on laptops, I always see a very healthy representation of Mac users. Of all ages.
bunderbunder 10y ago
I think that the more "pro" market might overestimate its own representativeness. Sure you can go to a tech meetup and see a sea of glowing Apple logos, but dominance in a relatively small portion of the market is still a small chunk of market share.
d3ckard 10y ago
I said that pro users made them rich, I didn't say that they had done it by buying stuff. Apple has been reaping rewards from the pro market for years. It's been those pro users who have been advocating the platform among friends and family. It's been those pro users who have been the perfect subject for those marketing campaigns showing how awesome new products are. It's been those pro users who write tech blogs and make the noise about Apple. It's been those pro users who made the brand what it is. I'm not saying that pro users directly bring cash to Apple (they do that too - look at the number of computers IBM is buying and tell me it's not because of those pro users who made mac the ultimate development plaftorm). The point is, Apple was using the pro users as their market driver, creating positive buzz and actually telling people about the alternative (out of US Macs never been that popular). Also, basically any pro user is better for making an ad than normal user - normal users use stuff that's available in the browser everywhere. Pro market does not have to be the main one for Apple. It has probably never been. The problem is that with pro users you lose a ton of market influence and its going to happen. The proof is in the article - Tim Cook would not bother to comment on the subject unless it was actually important. And it is important. Apple was always about the ecosystem. If they break the ecosystem, they will fail. Right now it does not look to good for them in the long run.
- adamlett 10y ago
  If you believe pro users have that kind of clout, you are delusional. The iPod most certainly didn't succeed because it was endorsed by pro users, nor did the iPhone. In fact the reaction from the pro market to those products when they were introduced, was one of dismissal ('No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame'). These products succeeded on their own merits by being fantastic products and -- to a lesser extend -- on the strength of Apple's brand and marketing. The halo effect from these two products is largely responsible for the success the Mac has enjoyed in recent history.
  - greedo 10y ago
    I hardly believe that CmdrTaco's reaction on Slashdot to the iPod is indicative in any way of how the "pro market" responded to the iPod or iPhone.
pka 10y ago
I've heard that argument dozens of times, but I really can't understand it. The App Store has millions of apps. Who created those apps, if not pro users? Without the App Store, who would buy iPhones, iPads and iPods? If Apple shit on the pro users they shit on themselves.
- adamlett 10y ago
  Pro users are a more diverse group than just app developers. My impression is that app developers are not the ones who feel poorly served by Apple's current hardware lineup[1]. Which is not to say that app developers don't have other legitimate grievances with Apple. [1] I know, I know; the disappearing of the escape key and the function keys affects everyone! Whatever will we all do?

utexaspunk 10y ago

I have to say Microsoft really nailed it with the Surface Studio (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-stud...). It's what Apple would have made already if they were "committed to the desktop" and wanted to stay true to their roots as the computer for creative work. They out-Appled Apple. Including the price, unfortunately.

slantyyz 10y ago

>> it's about neglecting the user group that made them rich in the first place. Well, times have changed. Apple is servicing the user group that is making them ultra rich now. I'm not a big fan of the direction they've taken, but I also don't blame them for it.