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Pregnancy alters woman's brain 'for at least two years'
- jay-saint 10y agoNo one wants to comment on this for fear their significant other with "Baby Brain" might see it.
- novia 10y agoBrain differences between the sexes are real, but we should interpret them with caution.
- Ensorceled 10y agoThere is very little interpretation in this article and none about the differences, just a note that men's brains are not structurally changed. Is this a pre-emptive warning to fellow commentators?
- novia 10y agoA warning to fellow commentators and readers. Humanity already has a pretty sizable history of biased interpretation of brain measurements. See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11129/box/A1833/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11129/box/A1833/
- mibbiting 10y agoOtherwise we'll be called sexist?
- tptacek 10y agoI think you accidentally left an extra word in your sentence.
- user982 10y ago"Otherwise," apparently.
- statictype 10y ago"Called" - implies that it's not actually sexist when in fact it is.
- Kroniker 10y agoIt isn't sexist to study sexual dimorphism. It would be sexist to have a conclusion about the sexes and then cherrypick evidence to support it- but finding evidence and then drawing a conclusion is in no way sexist.
- nommm-nommm 10y agoRead what the comment was replying to, "we should interpret [differences between the sexes] with caution."
- pc86 10y agoOtherwise we'll project unrelated biases under the guise of science. Otherwise we risk unconsciously ignoring or lessening the relevance of facts that contradict those biases. There's nothing sexist about studying the differences between male and female and learning about the biological/physiological strength and weaknesses of each. But there's little scientific justification in extrapolating that to unrelated conclusions. Edit: Not to mention the fact that we know very little about the brain compared to literally any other internal organ, so attempting to draw conclusions about behavior or sociology based on changes in the brain in some women during pregnancy is probably a fool's errand.
- rimantas 10y agoThis goes both ways.
- qb45 10y agoThis too I guess, but also http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1174 http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1174
- kaitai 10y agoNote that this study shows significant and multi-year structural changes between women who have experienced pregnancy and birth and women who did not conceive or give birth during the same time period. This is not a study that is primarily about differences between the sexes.
- nimchimpsky 10y agoA more interesting question is where do they originate, imo. Nature or nurture.
- SamReidHughes 10y agoWhy? What's the danger here, that you'll be wrong? If you interpret the differences "with caution" are you more or less likely to interpret them correctly?
- keyle 10y agoWe had our first born 7 months ago. I can tell you baby brain is real :) My wife, herself, recognise she became more centered around the baby, less forgiving and more selfish. Also less patience. But hey I'm not complaining, I love our little man. Nature is wonderful.
- 6DM 10y agoI never thought a reduction could result in an improvement. The brain is so fascinating! "The researchers found "substantial" reductions in the volume of grey matter in the brains of first-time mothers. The grey matter changes occurred in areas of the brain involved in social interactions used for attributing thoughts and feelings to other people - known as "theory-of-mind" tasks. The researchers thought this would give new mothers an advantage in various ways - help them recognise the needs of their child, be more aware of potential social threats and become more attached to their baby."
- Ensorceled 10y agoSeems logical: a temporary "this isn't the time to think about the needs of your extended family" signal lasting just up until the point the kid can toddle around would be survival enhancer.
- caminante 10y agoSee, I don't think it seems consistent. The author says that the reduction would make mom's MORE aware of social threats. What am I missing?
- johnlbevan2 10y agoBy being less able to read into the multiple possible reactions of a person; e.g. - "they're looking at my baby because she's cute" - "they're looking at my baby because they want to kill him" - "they're looking at my baby to feign interest in my life" ...the mothers are able to focus on the important options: - "they're probably a threat" - "they're probably not a threat"
- 6DM 10y agoI think this was ultimately the leap I was missing. The narrowing down of choices does tend to make things clearer and decisions easier.
- kagamine 10y ago"women's brains"? Or was it just one lady? Come on journalism, be clear in your meaning.
- caminante 10y agoStop trolling. And they compared these women's brains with those of 19 first-time fathers, 17 men without children and 20 women who had never given birth.
- supergreg 10y agoIt would have been interesting to also compare women pregnant with their second child. Is this phenomenon only seen in first time mothers?
- feintruled 10y agoMight explain why the first child gets wrapped in cotton wool, and the second is allowed to juggle knives!
- manarth 10y agoI think kegamine is pointing to the grammatical oddity of using the singular "woman" in the title, rather than the plural "women": Pregnancy alters woman's brain The article introduction phrases this in a little more concise a way: Pregnancy reduces grey matter in specific parts of a woman's brain I can see how the introduction probably became contracted to form the title, but in the contracted version, the plural "Pregnancy alters women's brain" would seem a little more grammatically precise than "Pregnancy alters woman's brain".
- pc86 10y agoNot trying to split hairs but is the study statistically significant that they can safely generalize to all women? Regardless I think the phrase "some womens'" would have been better in the title.
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- throwaway7645 10y agoMy wife and I both took our Professional Engineering Exams (8 hour test that is brutally hard) and she was 6 mo pregnant and still passed while I failed. I really feel dumb now.
- johnlbevan2 10y agoShe was thinking for 2 though ;)
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- erroneousfunk 10y agoHow does this research imply that there's any effect on a pregnant woman/new mother's ability to take a PE exam? The study talks about a gray matter reduction in small areas of the brain associated with social interaction. Based on other experiments, they further theorized that this may be a tool to help the mother quickly recognize her infant and assess its needs. Has nothing to do with engineering...
- throwaway7645 10y agoIt doesn't. I poorly skimmed it too quickly. She probably had 20+ coworkers tell her she would fail due to pregnancy-brain though, so it was nice to see her pass lol.
- nommm-nommm 10y agoHer coworkers don't seem like very pleasant people.
- ingamx77 10y agoI had the baby while at university, and it's true. While I was always brilliant in math and physics, I couldn't do simple things anymore. That was very frustrating. Thanks god the physics professor was very forgiving as he noticed the change
- kaybe 10y agoDid it revert, and after what time if yes?
- Jill_the_Pill 10y agoFor me, yes, but it took YEARS. My kids are now teenagers, and I feel sharper than ever, but those baby years were a blur.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- erroneousfunk 10y agoIt was probably more about sleep deprivation, chronic stress, and immediate reprioritization in your life, more than anything. It's hard to focus on learning new tasks when you're tired, and you're forced to confront a million new things at home. The study just said that, in small areas of the brain, gray matter was reduced, and they theorized that this specialization helped a new mother recognize her infant and its needs. Nothing to do with math and physics.
- kaitai 10y agoI don't know much about the reality of 'baby brain', but in the study under discussion the researchers tested cognitive skills like memory, verbal skills, and working memory, and there was no significant change over time. It looks like the after-pregnancy tests were given late enough that kids were probably sleeping through the night (or at least in 5-6 hr chunks).
- Frondo 10y agoFrom conversations I've had with several mothers, it's not just sleep deprivation, there's a fog that someone else here called "baby brain". This article suggests a physical reason why that is so, as well.
- bogrollben 10y agoWhereas the child itself alters the brain for the rest of your life.
- setq 10y agoThree children in, yes definitely.
- known 10y agoSalute the women;
- modzu 10y agoanother bbc link at the bottom of the article: "scientists say baby brain doesn't exist" lol such bad reporting. i digress. btw, small sample size too -- only 25 women?
- zeroer 10y agoDepends on the effect size.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago>And they compared these women's brains with those of 19 first-time fathers, 17 men without children and 20 women who had never given birth. Incomplete control group. They should have included first time adoptive mothers and women who gave their baby up for adoption. Also extremely small sample size. EDIT: It would have also been very relevant to include a sample of lesbian parents of the same child where one parent gave birth and one didn't.
- dominotw 10y agoyes exactly, how did they not think of this obvious control group.
- xkcd-sucks 10y agoIt's a bit surprising that a Nature Neuro paper didn't have more control groups. But on the other hand, it's trickier to get ahold of first time adoptive mothers etc. And on the third hand, there's always somebody requesting increasingly specific control groups and one just has to stop and publish at some point.
- econnors 10y agoSimilar to open sourcing "ugly" code. At some point the benefit of releasing is worth putting out non-perfect work. If there's interest, someone can build on what you've done and fork your progress.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- hueving 10y agoBetter yet, lesbian twin parents where one gave birth and one didn't! Not many of those I suppose... :)
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- LeoDox 10y agoI am genuinely not trolling, just curious coz I'm new here: what does this have to do with software? Or does HackerNews cover more than just software? Genuine question, not rhetorical
- Mahn 10y ago> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- yorwba 10y agoFrom https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- partiallypro 10y agoI always wonder about claims like this from both sides. I see people claiming pregnancy alters a woman's brain, miscarriages can cause postpartum depression, but then see claims that abortions do not effect the brain at all. The third I find hard to believe given the first two. And I know this is a touchy topic, but I am pro-choice yet find it a bit baffling that we ignore some of the science behind its effects on the brain and moods. Hormones are very powerful. If you are on either side of that fence, I think we can all agree that we want the woman to be well. I feel like writing off effects for political reasons does nothing but damage women (I think this is more U.S. than other countries.) Especially if we consider some women getting abortions are doing so for socio-economic reasons. If their brains are effected (they become depressed,) that is hurting their social standing even more. If we can identify that as a possible effect, then we can treat them. A bit of a tangent, but it's something reading this prompted me to rant about.
- hyperpape 10y agoI've not actually seen anyone claiming that abortion has zero effect (though I assume you must have seen some such claim). What I have seen are denials that it causes long term depression, which is perfectly compatible with your points about pregnancy/miscarriage. But it's also the question that matters--if the comparison is miscarriage/giving birth, the question is whether it produces any excess psychological effects.
- discordianfish 10y ago> I see people claiming pregnancy alters a woman's brain, miscarriages can cause postpartum depression, but then see claims that abortions do not effect the brain at all. The third I find hard to believe given the first two. The reason a miscarriage can cause depression while an abortion usually does not is because the former is against a women's will and the other her choice. I find that quite obvious to be honest.
- Pamar 10y agoEven if the abortion is a decision by the woman I doubt it's something that has no impact on her psyche.
- radicalbyte 10y agoAnecdotally I can say it has a large effect on the male brain too. The lack of sleep and time changes you. You get ruthless against time stealers and start seeing 6 hours as a nice long sleep. Full disclosure : I've had about 8hr sleep in 3 days,two sick kids...
- quickben 10y agoYep, 5 month old here, teething. Short term memory is impacted.
- vanderreeah 10y agoStill, impressive typing skills for your age.
- quickben 10y agoYou made my day :D
- module0000 10y agoTwin parent here...2 years and 2 months into it, and I would really like to know the limit of this "at least 2 years", because that original brain hasn't shown itself one bit, and I'd sure like to have it back.
- ashark 10y agoFormer coworker of mine figured poor memory formation during those early months is the only reason anyone has more than one kid.
- majkinetor 10y agoThat is irrelevant as it is consequence of life style change. Many mothers do not change lifestyle. This however makes me think how much of the woman change is due to the life style change which is mandatory in given situation for majority of mothers and how much is programmed.
- radicalbyte 10y agoAnecdotally I can say it has a large effect on the male brain too. The lack of sleep and time changes you. You get ruthless against time stealers and start seeing 6 hours as a nice long sleep. Full disclosure : I've had about 8hr sleep in 3 days,two sick kids...
- jug5 10y agoEven the most common sense things in life need to be researched to appease the clueless. Yet here you are trying to discredit the study as well. God help us.
- nklyn 10y agoBirth control pills boost the same hormones, I wonder if they would have similar affects on the brain.
- Kroniker 10y agoUnderrated comment, I would be very interested in a study on this.
- actuallyalys 10y agoPregnancy raises at least estrogen and progesterone to something like ten times the usual menstrual cycle peak, so I doubt the effect size is comparable. Also, I think pregnancy affects a broad range of hormones, not just the handful in birth control.
- elptacek 10y agoOxytocin levels also increase. That would be the first one I'd test for -- if there was a correlation between oxytocin levels and extent of grey matter loss.
- kaitai 10y agoIt's unfortunate that the link that made the front page here is to the BBC article rather than the NYTimes article [1] on the same study, as the NYTimes article much more clearly addresses a number of the points brought up by commenters here today. The NYTimes article briefly mentions other non-pregnancy related studies on the "pruning" of grey matter. One place to get a bunch of citations for studies on synaptic pruning is in the lit review of [2], since the NYTimes article itself doesn't have a citation for synaptic pruning research in adolescents. However, the NYTimes article does link to [3], an article about spontaneous theory of mind and synaptic density in 18-26 year olds. It looks at a this group of people not by age but by performance on theory of mind tasks, examining the relationship with structural MRI data from the participants. This sheds some light on efficiency and good performance on theory of mind tasks and the neuroanatomy of a person. I think for most HNers taking out thinking about pregnancy and looking at this study first would be useful in understanding the results -- we've all got a lot of preconceived notions about the effects of pregnancy that make it hard to think about the results of the study rationally. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/health/pregnancy-brain-change.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/health/pregnancy-brain-cha... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2475802/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2475802/ [3] https://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/3/327.abstract https://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/3/327.abstract
- dsacco 10y agoThanks for making this point, especially with regards to pregnancy being a loaded discussion topic. In the original study I found it very interesting that the authors drew parallels between the "maturation" of a new mother's brain (grey matter reductions) and the brains of adolescents undergoing pregnancy. If this study replicates, I would love to see followup studies exploring measures of narcissism, time management, executive functioning and facial recognition over time in women shortly before, during and after pregnancy (and perhaps even two years afterwards). These are all areas in which adolescents experience significant variations in functioning when compared to the general population, and there could be a lot of fertile ground here. One other thought that strikes me is how the grey matter alterations could potentially impact teenage mothers. If the mother's brain has not left adolescence by the time she experiences pregnancy, it would be interesting to see how the grey matter alterations differ, considering the authors' comparison.
- lostlogin 10y agoDoes the percentage of mothers who were getting fertility treatment make this actually representative? The pain and suffering that those who struggle to have children followed (presumably!) by happiness when they have a child must have some effect? The average age of the participants also seems high to me, but a brief search for an average age for having a first child put this study cohort only slightly over that - surprising to me at least.
- DanBC 10y ago> followed (presumably!) by happiness Baby blues and postnatal depression are common, even among people who've been through fertility treatment. Indeed, those people may find it harder to seek help because of the assumptions that they must be happy after all that struggle. (Also, about 1 in 10 men have postnatal depression.)
- lostlogin 10y agoThis is true, but two years down the track one would hope this had passed. I know that long term health problems do occur but I don't think anyone would describe them as post-natal depression or baby blues at that point.
- DanBC 10y agoPostnatal depression is most common 4 years after the birth.
- wcummings 10y agoIn what way is this "on topic"?
- randyrand 10y agoIt permanently altered my brain for sure and I'm a father. It altered my thoughts. The things I care about. The way I act. There is no going back.