3 ms·

Ah yes, theft by negotiation, why didn't those unions simply make a worse deal for their members, just like we would all expect our lawyer to do for instance if

by neaden 10y ago

Ah yes, theft by negotiation, why didn't those unions simply make a worse deal for their members, just like we would all expect our lawyer to do for instance if they thought it was better for society. The problem here is short sightedness and over optimism, blaming the unions is just buying into it more.

smallnamespace 10y ago
Well, part of the problem with our current society is that the social norm is to only look out for your own interest, and the public be damned. This attitude is applicable to lawyers, who only represent their clients, to company executives, who only represent investors, to investors, who only care about their own returns, and to lobbyists, who only care about their lobby's interests. This sort of system is fine when all parties to a dispute are equally organized and powerful, but it squeezes out the general public, who are not able to mobilize as effectively. It also forces people to focus on how to win, rather than how to cooperate more effectively for mutual benefit. Unless we are willing to relax this attitude of 'only care about my own or my client's bottom line' at least a little bit, there is going to be little room for changes that are necessary to happen.
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  > the social norm is to only look out for your own interest We can wish upon a star that people were better, or we can put a public advocate in the room during these negotiations.
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    I can't see that going well if it's the government that appoints and pays for the public advocate. And if the public advocate is an elected position, then we have the same problem as exists now -- unions are politically much more organized than the general public.
  - notliketherest 10y ago
    "put a public advocate in the room during these negotiations" The politicians that are negotiating with the unions ARE the public advocates! The problem is the unions have bought them off!!
notliketherest 10y ago
It's not "negotiation" when you bankrolled the other side into their position of power. The public sector unions in California have bought politicians through campaign donations (and most assuredly less scrupulous means such as bribery) for decades. The REAL problem here is the tax payers have no representation at the negotiation table because their politicians are crooked.

by neaden 10y ago

smallnamespace 10y ago

Well, part of the problem with our current society is that the social norm is to only look out for your own interest, and the public be damned. This attitude is applicable to lawyers, who only represent their clients, to company executives, who only represent investors, to investors, who only care about their own returns, and to lobbyists, who only care about their lobby's interests. This sort of system is fine when all parties to a dispute are equally organized and powerful, but it squeezes out the general public, who are not able to mobilize as effectively. It also forces people to focus on how to win, rather than how to cooperate more effectively for mutual benefit. Unless we are willing to relax this attitude of 'only care about my own or my client's bottom line' at least a little bit, there is going to be little room for changes that are necessary to happen.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> the social norm is to only look out for your own interest We can wish upon a star that people were better, or we can put a public advocate in the room during these negotiations.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  I can't see that going well if it's the government that appoints and pays for the public advocate. And if the public advocate is an elected position, then we have the same problem as exists now -- unions are politically much more organized than the general public.
- notliketherest 10y ago
  "put a public advocate in the room during these negotiations" The politicians that are negotiating with the unions ARE the public advocates! The problem is the unions have bought them off!!

notliketherest 10y ago

It's not "negotiation" when you bankrolled the other side into their position of power. The public sector unions in California have bought politicians through campaign donations (and most assuredly less scrupulous means such as bribery) for decades. The REAL problem here is the tax payers have no representation at the negotiation table because their politicians are crooked.