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> robbed the state coffers blind State coffers filled with their neighbors' money. Public union negotiations are always against the non-union taxpayers, which

> robbed the state coffers blind State coffers filled with their neighbors' money. Public union negotiations are always against the non-union taxpayers, which are not well represented since the politician "representative" is bought by the union. Public sector unions are the embodiment of moral hazard.

ng12 10y ago
I don't understand why state/federal employees are allowed to unionize at all, let alone why they have such strong ones. Are government employees actually in danger of abuse or is it just because they can?
- neaden 10y ago
  Why wouldn't they be allowed to unionize? In America you have a right to a union.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    > Why wouldn't they be allowed to unionize? Because businesses go out of business when they can't meet their financial obligations. Or they declare bankruptcy and restructure the debt. In the meantime, their competitors pick up their slack in the various markets (labor, suppliers, sales). The same mechanisms don't exist when it comes to governments, who, by definition, have certain kinds of non-negotiable monopoly and monopsony powers.
  - ak217 10y ago
    Because their employer can't go bankrupt if they happen to bargain themselves an impossible deal.
    - jhayward 10y ago
      Of course they can. Every city, county, state, individual and corporate entity in the US can go bankrupt. The federal government can't, technically, but it can default,
      - ak217 10y ago
        States and the federal government cannot meaningfully go bankrupt. The problem is described in the article. While cities and counties can technically go bankrupt, they will externalize the costs and take on debt burdens at taxpayers' expense before they do so, to an extent that private companies are not allowed to. There have been just 9 city and county bankruptcies in the United States since 2008. Only 6 of them resulted in debt shedding, representing less than $30B in debt. That's 0.06 percent of total municipalities that could theoretically go bankrupt. In that time, tens of thousands of business entities and hundreds of publicly traded companies, representing trillions of USD of capitalization, have gone bankrupt. The overall ratio of public:private sector economy in the US is roughly 1:2.
  - kobeya 10y ago
    > In America you have a right to a union. No, you don't. At least not as a universal generalization. The law is more complex than that.
  - c517402 10y ago
    IIRC FDR considered public employee unions immoral.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >In America you have a right to a union. There's an "in Capitalist America" joke in here somewhere, because you really don't have any effective right to union membership in the United States. Organizing any new union is a grinding struggle.
crdoconnor 10y ago
>Public union negotiations are always against the non-union taxpayers Public sector unions drag up wages which has a ripple effect on non-unionized and non-public unions. (citation: http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/ http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/) Public sector unions also become more powerful in concert with private sector unions and vice versa - strikes work much more effectively when they are synchronous. It's not complicated economics.

ng12 10y ago

I don't understand why state/federal employees are allowed to unionize at all, let alone why they have such strong ones. Are government employees actually in danger of abuse or is it just because they can?

neaden 10y ago
Why wouldn't they be allowed to unionize? In America you have a right to a union.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  > Why wouldn't they be allowed to unionize? Because businesses go out of business when they can't meet their financial obligations. Or they declare bankruptcy and restructure the debt. In the meantime, their competitors pick up their slack in the various markets (labor, suppliers, sales). The same mechanisms don't exist when it comes to governments, who, by definition, have certain kinds of non-negotiable monopoly and monopsony powers.
- ak217 10y ago
  Because their employer can't go bankrupt if they happen to bargain themselves an impossible deal.
  - jhayward 10y ago
    Of course they can. Every city, county, state, individual and corporate entity in the US can go bankrupt. The federal government can't, technically, but it can default,
    - ak217 10y ago
      States and the federal government cannot meaningfully go bankrupt. The problem is described in the article. While cities and counties can technically go bankrupt, they will externalize the costs and take on debt burdens at taxpayers' expense before they do so, to an extent that private companies are not allowed to. There have been just 9 city and county bankruptcies in the United States since 2008. Only 6 of them resulted in debt shedding, representing less than $30B in debt. That's 0.06 percent of total municipalities that could theoretically go bankrupt. In that time, tens of thousands of business entities and hundreds of publicly traded companies, representing trillions of USD of capitalization, have gone bankrupt. The overall ratio of public:private sector economy in the US is roughly 1:2.
- kobeya 10y ago
  > In America you have a right to a union. No, you don't. At least not as a universal generalization. The law is more complex than that.
- c517402 10y ago
  IIRC FDR considered public employee unions immoral.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >In America you have a right to a union. There's an "in Capitalist America" joke in here somewhere, because you really don't have any effective right to union membership in the United States. Organizing any new union is a grinding struggle.

crdoconnor 10y ago

>Public union negotiations are always against the non-union taxpayers Public sector unions drag up wages which has a ripple effect on non-unionized and non-public unions. (citation: http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/ http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/) Public sector unions also become more powerful in concert with private sector unions and vice versa - strikes work much more effectively when they are synchronous. It's not complicated economics.