5 ms·

When I visited Berlin last year, I visited the DDR Museum. It's not about the RAM or the dance game you might know, but instead the organization we just know as

When I visited Berlin last year, I visited the DDR Museum. It's not about the RAM or the dance game you might know, but instead the organization we just know as "East Germany." You can probably guess where I'm going with this. One of the exhibits was of a common East Berlin living room. The exhibit explained how the state had hidden microphones here. They were listening for people to express anti-socialist ideas in their own homes. This was a real threat faced by people not more than 30 or 40 years ago. You could have your life turned upside down just for saying the wrong thing at home. This exhibit drove home for me the inherent abusive powers enabled by some tech. One of these technologies is always on, always connected microphones. Why would I want one in my house? Given the potential downsides, what could possibly be worth it to justify having one?

brightball 10y ago
That's a valid point and at the same time, we have to wonder about things like bundled cameras and mic's on computers, cell phones, TV's. These days it seems like the act of having an internet connection at all can open this type of door.
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  Quite. So it becomes a matter of trust. Amazon and Google are probably on the wrong side of that balance. For a lot of IoT apps the net isn't the appropriate place at all - local net is better. I'm not a fan of thermostats that prevent you having heating because some cloud server is being DDOS'd etc. I had hoped and frankly expected that there'd be a few more privacy oriented choices in this space by now. There was Zoe[1], but that got canned at last minute. I really didn't want a refund... [1] https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/protonet-zoe-start-your-secure-smart-home-now https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/protonet-zoe-start-your-s...
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    I spent a few minutes on the campaign page but couldn't find details about the closure of the project (it looks like it's still open). As someone with an interest in privacy-protecting home devices, can you explain a bit more about why it closed?
    - anexprogrammer 10y ago
      Click into the updates, 3 months ago. I think the only thing on the main page, now the funding has closed, is the updated FAQs at the end including info about refunds. In short 5 months ago all seemed to be going OK, then they went a tad quiet. Three months ago there was another update including a CEO statement. "Due to unforeseen delays in the development, we are not going to deliver the ZOE in the current form and all contributors will be refunded." They mention it's a partner having development delays in some critical component, but all very vague with no details. Supposedly the project is alive and we'll get an update email when they're ready to try again. I infer from refunds all round it's not going to be soon. If it was just a few months I figure they'd ask for patience to work around whatever issue.
      - nitrogen 10y ago
        Ok, thanks. I'm certain all of the necessary technological building blocks exist to make this kind of thing a reality, but all the megascale funding goes to mediocre, insecure devices and services. These cloud consumer perceptions and make it difficult to know what would actually work in the market.
        anexprogrammer 10y ago
        There's probably scope for an open project here. There might be one - never searched as Zoe ticked all the boxes for me. Local voice recognition, open to the cloud for better accuracy, and set exactly what gets to talk to the net. From a company with some experience in private cloud and hardware. I don't know enough of IoT specs, protocols etc to know what would be needed other than the broadest terms. Probably yet another use for a Pi 3.
- tomc1985 10y ago
  Yes, but in all those examples the camera/microphone defaults to "off", not "on". That is the most important distinction. Sure my laptop has a camera but if I keep good security practices I can feel reasonably assured that it is not monitoring me unless I've switched it on for some reason. The Alexas and Google Homes of the world default to "on", and everything you do/say is monitored because "cloud processing". I will always have a problem with anything that tries to use my actions to build a more predictable model of who I am or what I am/will be doing
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
rhino369 10y ago
The risk is rather low if you don't live in a totalitarian state and you don't engage in extremely subversive or criminal activities. Sure, the government could force Amazon to let Echo spy on you. But they could force Apple or Google to do the same thing with your phone. Speakerphone isn't as good as far field mikes, but it's pretty good. The government could also just bug your apartment the old fashioned way. The big fear would be that echo is storing audio of your house that a future government could use against you. But there is no indication that Amazon does that. It only sends audio after it's triggered by the codeword. Honestly, my google and bing histories are probably a lot more damning. But if Trump goes all hitler on us, I'd throw mine out.
- brian-armstrong 10y ago
  You're assuming the device never acts incorrectly/has bugs. Why? Also, the recent findings show it's not just subversive actors who gets surveiled. There are already massive dragnet operations. That's happening right now. So it's not some hypothetical, that's reality. I think the better approach, rather than waiting and finding out too late, is just to avoid these altogether. The world has mostly been pretty safe but the security appears to now be threatened and civil liberties are rapidly eroding. So just for that reason I think our position for ourselves and for friends/family should just be to pass altogether on this type of device
  - marchenko 10y ago
    I wonder if, in the future, it will be just as hard to find a "dumb" toaster/lightswitch/thermometer as it is to find incandescent bulbs.
- bencollier49 10y ago
  And you think you wouldn't be arrested for throwing it out?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- xorcist 10y ago
product50 10y ago
Either you can be scared all your life or adopt a system which is going to make your/your family's life more convenient. Wrt your fear of always on microphones, there is a possibility that this may also happen on your smartphone where some rogue app might be listening to all your conversations. I don't see this to be quite different from that. I guess as more and more people adopt Alexa and you see the benefits, you will reach a tipping point where the pros outweigh the cons..
- pdkl95 10y ago
  > you can be scared all your life Resistance to technology that has unbounded risk isn't "fear". It's vigilance against an increasingly dangerous threat. Ignore that risk at your own peril. > this may also happen on your smartphone What smartphone? Regular phones still work, and a full size screen and keyboard has much better ergonomics. Also, the existence of malicious software doesn't mean it's a good idea to voluntarily increase your attack surface. Lockpicks exist, but you probably still lock your house and car. > you see the benefits That will never happen, because voice input isn't ever going to be compatible with my apartment's old walls. Talking loudly at night is rude to the neighbors.

brightball 10y ago

That's a valid point and at the same time, we have to wonder about things like bundled cameras and mic's on computers, cell phones, TV's. These days it seems like the act of having an internet connection at all can open this type of door.

anexprogrammer 10y ago
Quite. So it becomes a matter of trust. Amazon and Google are probably on the wrong side of that balance. For a lot of IoT apps the net isn't the appropriate place at all - local net is better. I'm not a fan of thermostats that prevent you having heating because some cloud server is being DDOS'd etc. I had hoped and frankly expected that there'd be a few more privacy oriented choices in this space by now. There was Zoe[1], but that got canned at last minute. I really didn't want a refund... [1] https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/protonet-zoe-start-your-secure-smart-home-now https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/protonet-zoe-start-your-s...
- nitrogen 10y ago
  I spent a few minutes on the campaign page but couldn't find details about the closure of the project (it looks like it's still open). As someone with an interest in privacy-protecting home devices, can you explain a bit more about why it closed?
  - anexprogrammer 10y ago
    Click into the updates, 3 months ago. I think the only thing on the main page, now the funding has closed, is the updated FAQs at the end including info about refunds. In short 5 months ago all seemed to be going OK, then they went a tad quiet. Three months ago there was another update including a CEO statement. "Due to unforeseen delays in the development, we are not going to deliver the ZOE in the current form and all contributors will be refunded." They mention it's a partner having development delays in some critical component, but all very vague with no details. Supposedly the project is alive and we'll get an update email when they're ready to try again. I infer from refunds all round it's not going to be soon. If it was just a few months I figure they'd ask for patience to work around whatever issue.
    - nitrogen 10y ago
      Ok, thanks. I'm certain all of the necessary technological building blocks exist to make this kind of thing a reality, but all the megascale funding goes to mediocre, insecure devices and services. These cloud consumer perceptions and make it difficult to know what would actually work in the market.
      - anexprogrammer 10y ago
        There's probably scope for an open project here. There might be one - never searched as Zoe ticked all the boxes for me. Local voice recognition, open to the cloud for better accuracy, and set exactly what gets to talk to the net. From a company with some experience in private cloud and hardware. I don't know enough of IoT specs, protocols etc to know what would be needed other than the broadest terms. Probably yet another use for a Pi 3.
tomc1985 10y ago
Yes, but in all those examples the camera/microphone defaults to "off", not "on". That is the most important distinction. Sure my laptop has a camera but if I keep good security practices I can feel reasonably assured that it is not monitoring me unless I've switched it on for some reason. The Alexas and Google Homes of the world default to "on", and everything you do/say is monitored because "cloud processing". I will always have a problem with anything that tries to use my actions to build a more predictable model of who I am or what I am/will be doing

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

rhino369 10y ago

The risk is rather low if you don't live in a totalitarian state and you don't engage in extremely subversive or criminal activities. Sure, the government could force Amazon to let Echo spy on you. But they could force Apple or Google to do the same thing with your phone. Speakerphone isn't as good as far field mikes, but it's pretty good. The government could also just bug your apartment the old fashioned way. The big fear would be that echo is storing audio of your house that a future government could use against you. But there is no indication that Amazon does that. It only sends audio after it's triggered by the codeword. Honestly, my google and bing histories are probably a lot more damning. But if Trump goes all hitler on us, I'd throw mine out.

brian-armstrong 10y ago
You're assuming the device never acts incorrectly/has bugs. Why? Also, the recent findings show it's not just subversive actors who gets surveiled. There are already massive dragnet operations. That's happening right now. So it's not some hypothetical, that's reality. I think the better approach, rather than waiting and finding out too late, is just to avoid these altogether. The world has mostly been pretty safe but the security appears to now be threatened and civil liberties are rapidly eroding. So just for that reason I think our position for ourselves and for friends/family should just be to pass altogether on this type of device
- marchenko 10y ago
  I wonder if, in the future, it will be just as hard to find a "dumb" toaster/lightswitch/thermometer as it is to find incandescent bulbs.
bencollier49 10y ago
And you think you wouldn't be arrested for throwing it out?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
xorcist 10y ago

product50 10y ago

Either you can be scared all your life or adopt a system which is going to make your/your family's life more convenient. Wrt your fear of always on microphones, there is a possibility that this may also happen on your smartphone where some rogue app might be listening to all your conversations. I don't see this to be quite different from that. I guess as more and more people adopt Alexa and you see the benefits, you will reach a tipping point where the pros outweigh the cons..

pdkl95 10y ago
> you can be scared all your life Resistance to technology that has unbounded risk isn't "fear". It's vigilance against an increasingly dangerous threat. Ignore that risk at your own peril. > this may also happen on your smartphone What smartphone? Regular phones still work, and a full size screen and keyboard has much better ergonomics. Also, the existence of malicious software doesn't mean it's a good idea to voluntarily increase your attack surface. Lockpicks exist, but you probably still lock your house and car. > you see the benefits That will never happen, because voice input isn't ever going to be compatible with my apartment's old walls. Talking loudly at night is rude to the neighbors.