8 ms·

Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

58 points by kungfudoi 10y ago

microtherion 10y ago
It would be interesting to correlate this with time of residency in the US. Of the companies cited, Google and Intel are in the top 20 H1B visa sponsors, so a sizable percentage of those Asian American employees might have been in the US for only a few years (and hired specifically to be individual contributors) http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx
ksk 10y ago
I think this article is quite poor. It doesn't explain why you would expect there to be more Asians in the first place. Asians are over-represented in STEM fields. You could just as well ask a general question about "nerds" not getting hired into executive positions.
- nylonstrung 10y ago
  Likewise even in finance there is serious overrepresentation at the junior levels (and overwhelming overrepresentation in terms of applicants) yet the same near total absence of Asian leadership
Torgo 10y ago
>It is time to rethink the “good leader” prototype of being masculine, dictatorial, and charismatic. Good luck, there's a reason those attributes are dominant.
- jchrisa 10y ago
  But they don't correlate with shareholder value.
- salmonet 10y ago
  Agreed. Anecdotally, uncharismatic, feminine pushovers seem to be less effective in leadership positions.
- n00b101 10y ago
  ">It is time to rethink the “good leader” prototype of being masculine, dictatorial, and charismatic. Good luck, there's a reason those attributes are dominant." I agree, and I think it is a ridiculous and offensive conclusion that the authors are making here. They are perpetuating a stereotype of Asians based on a claim that "Eastern cultural norms encourage humility and deference to authority." Firstly, this claim is not based on any data. I am reluctant to accept the stereotype that everyone in Asia is the opposite of "masculine, dictatorial, and charismatic," especially people who are candidates for positions of leadership. Did anyone go to Asian companies and see that all their executives are all feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers? Secondly, even if we take this claim of an "inferior leadership culture" seriously, it can only logically apply to unassimilated Asian immigrants. What about Asian Americans, people who are born here? Are we to believe that they are all also all "feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers?" This seems like a post hoc, pseudo-scientific justification for what is really an executive and baord level diversity issue.
  - nylonstrung 10y ago
    >Did anyone go to Asian companies and see that all their executives are all feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers? Racist stereotypes don't have to be logical. >Are we to believe that they are all also all "feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers?" When is the last time you've seen media depict an Asian male as sexual virile? When is the last time you've seen an Asian male kiss a woman on screen in Western media. For every one instance I can think of 10 depictions of exactly what you described. I say this not because the media is solely the cause of these perceptions but it is clearly representative of the greater societal attitudes at play here.
- drewrv 10y ago
  I doubt the reason is that those traits make a good leader. More likely its's because we're all 96% chimpanzee.
- __derek__ 10y ago
  Yes, confirmation bias and superstition.
  - acedinlowball 10y ago
    Wrong.
- EdHominem 10y ago
  Sure, because in the past if you disagreed those people would have killed you and taken what they wanted. Now we just give it to them to avoid the strife. But there's very little (none?) evidence that a traditional "strong" (bully) leader is more effective than a committee. Modern businesses tend to understand this because they appoint a strong CEOs but manage them with a board which retains ultimate power. Sadly, this wisdom has yet to reach the electorate. When we elect a bully we give them free run. (Even in a country like Canada with the Prime Minster chosen by the party, the party rarely controls them.)
terda12 10y ago
I'm not a business leader by any means so keep that in mind. I'm an Asian, and I don't see this as a problem tbh. American leaders have, historically, tend to be white men (think the first 49 presidents). We're definitely starting to see diversity in leadership positions. Obama, Sundar Pichai of Google, Satya Nadella of Microsoft, Yishan Wong/Ellen Pao of Reddit are some examples that come to my mind. Even Ellen Pao, who received flak for some reddit drama, was never criticized for being an Asian female. So yeah I'm not too worried. I think we're seeing a shift towards a more diverse country for sure. It won't happen overnight but it's definitely shifting.
- mc32 10y ago
  That and there are a number of under the radar small to mid sized businesses (tech and non-tech) founded by Asians which are not publicly run companies who for the most part are run by Asians (mostly of the same ethnicity, but not always).
- novia 10y ago
  > Even Ellen Pao, who received flak for some reddit drama, was never criticized for being an Asian female. Yes she was. They referred to her as "Chairman Pao" as well as other racist and sexist slurs which I do not care to repeat.
  - chipperyman573 10y ago
    Wasn't she on the board of Reddit? Making her a chairman (or is the PC way to say that chairwoman and you're trying to make this a sex issue)
    - novia 10y ago
      Ok, fine, here is a link to a comment from a year ago that is both racist and sexist: https://www.reddit.com/r/opieandanthony/comments/36mx0n/reddit_ceo_ellen_pao_its_not_our_sites_goal_to_be/crfbssl/ https://www.reddit.com/r/opieandanthony/comments/36mx0n/redd... The Chairman Pao nickname was used to draw comparisons between Ellen Pao and Chairman Mao. Yeah, not racist at all.
Spooky23 10y ago
Senior leadership is a club. People like to work with their friends, and the qualification to be a high level person in many situations has low correlation to skill. Once you get in the club, you move up. I think South Asian asians do better here as many have excellent language skills. East Asians have a disadvantage there, and cultural friction makes it hard for "ABC" chinese. IMO it's less a glass ceiling for asians and more that people will take care of their tribe first. (ie. companies who only want to talk to Stanford alum, etc) You see this in government. One city agency that I consulted with had a disproportionate number orthodox jewish folks and east africans in leadership positions -- associates of the boss and deputy boss. In a county in another state, all of the leadership of verticals were Indian from a specific region whose name escapes me. Corporations are different, because corporate leadership is more incestuous and boards lack real power over hiring anyone outside the club, unlike a Mayor, Governor, etc who has total control.
- samspenc 10y ago
  > cultural friction makes it hard for "ABC" chinese Can you clarify what you mean by "cultural friction"? I always thought that "ABCs" and "ABCDs" (Indians born in the US) were better at integrating with workplaces here than those coming from Asia?
  - sushid 10y ago
    Not the parent commenter but I believe the parent's saying that even ABCs (or ABCDs) have a lower chance of being in said tribe than say, a fellow white alum with a similar socioeconomic background.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    I'm not an expert on this (Not a psychologist, don't play one on TV), but I took a lot of East Asian studies classes and did a fairly substantial research project as an undergrad on the topic. Our team interviewed about 120 young Chinese people at our university and neighboring schools. About 75% were ABC, 25% immigrants. As I recall, the dominant theme from the ABC kids was a dichotomy of different expectations and pressures. Examples: - They found themselves in a position of go-between with folks outside their family at a young age. One person described being the translator for their dad in buying a car at age 10. - They had an intense pressure to succeed. They felt that family was struggling mostly to provide them with the tools for success. One person's mother worked 90 hours a week in traditional immigrant gigs at a laundromat (pressing shirts overnight) and restaurant. - Simultaneously, the older generation of grandparents and family abroad saw them as decadent americans. People outside the family saw them as foreigners -- they would be asked in the street if they spoke english or knew about America. Many described rebuke for their clothing, differences in education, etc. A few talked about over-compensating and trying to be "the ultimate white kid", but not really identifying with that persona. I walked away from that project with a deep and profound respect for the folks we talked to and the differences in perspective and even thought process. My grandparents were immigrants and talked to me often about their experience... but being an Irish immigrant in 1940s NYC, while a struggle is a very different when you're bridging language and big cultural gaps. My parents, aunts and uncles very clearly identified as Americans, and nobody inside of outside the family questioned that.
brighteyes 10y ago
This is an important topic, but as often happens, the article just treads the same old themes. It's looking for answers in the usual places, when it's not clear the answers are there. First of all, Asian Americans are still overrepresented in tech leadership positions. Just less than they are overrepresented in tech positions in general. So looking for a negative (discriminatory) effect may be the wrong thing - we may need to look for less of a positive effect instead. That's harder to do, of course. Second, while the stereotypes described in the article may well play a role here, there are other explanations that are overlooked but may matter as much or more. We know that height is a significant factor in earning and in particular in getting to leadership positions. It's of comparable effect to the gender gap, but not as studied, because it's not "interesting" - US culture is focused on looking for discrimination on the familiar axes of race, gender and sexuality. But just like height might explain women's relatively low leadership rates, it might explain Asian American's, as they tend to be shorter.
- rubber_duck 10y ago
  >But just like height might explain women's relatively low leadership rates, it might explain Asian American's, as they tend to be shorter. If anything it would be more probable that the causation goes the other way arround.
- n00b101 10y ago
  > "Asian Americans are still overrepresented in tech leadership positions." No, the article clearly states that they are under-represented. It cites 2015 report on diversity looking at 5 Silicon Valley companies: Google, Hewlett-Packard, Intel, LinkedIn, and Yahoo. The report finds that, "Asians and Asian Americans are well represented in lower-level positions but underrepresented at management and executive levels. Asian Americans (including Indians) are 27% of the workers in these companies, but only 19% of managers and 14% of executives. In contrast, whites represented 62% of professionals and 80% of executives in these firms." > "We know that height is a significant factor in earning and in particular in getting to leadership positions. It's of comparable effect to the gender gap..." Height being a "confounding variable" in discrimination against both Asians and women seems like an interesting theory, but it doesn't fit the facts from the article :"This is worse than the glass ceiling effect that’s been identified for women; in these five firms, men are 42% more likely to have an executive role than women, and white men and women are 154% more likely than Asians to hold an executive role. And Asians represent only 1.5% of corporate officer positions in the Fortune 500" I am also reluctant to accept your stereotype of "short Asian men" (South and East Asian) without seeing any data specifically on the distribution of heights of American Asian males versus American white males. I suspect that the difference is not as large as you make it out be.
douche 10y ago
Take a look at the demographics of the Ivy League and the other schools in the traditional pipeline to leadership and power. Give it twenty years. This will also start getting well into the meat of the second and third generations of those who came to the US after the relaxation of exclusionary immigration laws[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_immigration_to_the_United_States#Phasing_out_of_exclusionary_policies_.281943-1965.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_immigration_to_the_Unite...
throwaw12ay 10y ago
America has this weird obsession with race and dividing everything by race. Since when "Asian" is a race? It's so weird that people in US need to choose their race on a form when applying for college or even for a job, or on a census. So you can't be just american, you need to be Asian american or something american, like being american is not enough to constitute a nationality or an identity.
- ftrflyr 10y ago
  No need for a throw away here. The US has been far too liberal / progressive for too long. The scale will tip back to conservative for the next 4 - 8+ years I predict. This is natural. Also, take a look at Canada (a 3 party system). Anytime liberals go too far left, the conservatives reel them back in. Anytime conservatives go too far right, the liberals reel them back in. A third party (independent) ensures this process happens. We (the US) as a two party system will always go through either being too far left or right. This is why there needs to be a third party.
- drewrv 10y ago
  The US has a long and nasty history of racism. We need to collect racial data in order to see if we're fixing it or not. To refuse on principal to collect race data in education or criminal justice would obscure real problems and be akin to burying our head in the sand.
  - ftrflyr 10y ago
    This problem is not limited to the US. China, India, and the rest of the world has and have had the same problem here.
  - stcredzero 10y ago
    The US has a long and nasty history of racism. Culture in the Americas was particularly afflicted by class becoming associated with race. There was rampant indentured servitude in Korea hundreds of years ago, basically slavery with different formalities. (I've been told that my surname makes it likely my family is descended from such people.) No one really cares about it any more, because we are fairly racially homogeneous. There is something particularly nasty about making an inborn trait a kind of "brand" of class status. Racism is weirdly and deeply rooted in US culture. A friend of mine started a gay Asian men's group in Seattle in the last century. He then had to start a 2nd one with a by-law limiting attendance to Asians, because the 1st one had become a pick-up scene for middle-aged white men to find a "Rice Queen." My 20's and 30's were punctuated with the occasional weird transgression from older white men. Much of my youth and childhood were punctuated with rare but memorable occasions of racial/ethnic harassment. I went on a date with a fellow musician who was born in Thailand, and in conversation I realized that an uncomfortably large portion of her flirting history consisted of white men doing things like putting their hand on her thigh in public while talking about prostitutes. There's something about US culture that seems to be enabling for a fairly extreme level of transgression by some small part of the populace towards Asians, which also results in ethnic self-hatred in American born Asians. My current China born girlfriend has a Ph. D. and an MBA, and she thinks the notion that Asian guys are somehow sexually inferior/unattractive/noncompetitive to be bizarre. Yet, I've had multiple discussions on reddit and Hacker News, where commenters promulgated such weird ideas of inherent Asian inferiority! The reason why I particularly dislike intellectually bankrupt SJW ideology, is precisely because I know that it has a point! There are weird racial attitudes in various subcultures in the US. It is something that is very hard to pin down and discuss, yet needs to be explored. Representing such a thing badly is precisely the best way to ensure it never gets discussed usefully.
sametmax 10y ago
How many white or black do you see in a leadership position in China ? In India ? In Thailand ? This is not an american thing.
- ftrflyr 10y ago
  I agree. Articles such as this are divisive and lead to polarizing viewpoints. Perhaps it is time we hire and promote based on ability and not race, gender, color, etc. edit: You can down vote me all you want. Every single person that does is out of touch with reality. As such, this is a clear example as to why Trump was elected. Downvoters will need to change their attitudes are get left behind. We are in fact, moving towards a more conservative country dynamic.
- callinyouin 10y ago
  It might not be, but consider the demographics. Asian Americans make up 5.6% of the population (according to Wikipedia). In any of the countries listed, white/black people surely make up a much, much smaller percentage.
  - ftrflyr 10y ago
    It is inaccurate to use the total 5.6% here. What percentage of the 5.6% depicts Asian males who are an appropriate age to hold a leadership position? I am certain the percentage is drastically lower; 0 - 1% perhaps.
    - callinyouin 10y ago
      That's fair, but then that "rule" would also apply to the number of white/black people in the countries listed, making it lower. Doesn't make the point of considering demographics any less valid.
      - ftrflyr 10y ago
        It is my assumption that white males living in these countries are old enough to hold leadership positions. One can safely assume a 12 year old is not immigrating to China to live / work.
dsl 10y ago
Why aren't more black women leading companies in Asia?
omot 10y ago
Asians are 5% of US population, Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella are CEO of major tech companies. I'm Asian and I feel like our demographic is overrepresented in some sense.
chrisco255 10y ago
Statistical fallacies abound in this article. One thought I had while reading it, is that what is the average tenure in those companies among Asians vs. whites? It can take years to get into leadership roles. Leadership numbers are lagging indicators. A lot of immigration has occurred in the last 15 years, especially with the H1-B visas and my theory is that Asian makeup of companies has increased steadily in that time frame.
- nylonstrung 10y ago
  Do you think Silicon Valley had a shortage of Asians in 2000? The thought process behind what you said is correct but not in light of the fact that Asians have been one of the most educated groups in the country for over 20s years. There still is a severe underrepresentation even when you factor that into account
  - chrisco255 10y ago
    I don't think the percentage of entry-level technical employees was 27% in 2000, based on immigration trends, I highly doubt it.
jeffdavis 10y ago
Why do we expect uniform outcomes from diverse people? Say two groups are different enough that, when you put them together, you call that "diversity". Why do you expect them to be statistically identical when you divide the groups apart again? Prejudice in career advancement and other important decisions is bad, of course. People should be judged on their own merits, not group statistics. But that doesn't mean that group statistical differences are necessarily due to prejudice.
- concinds 10y ago
  This. Why should America reflect world diversity? And how could it? Are there not enough whites in executive positions in Asia? The question doesn't make sense, because "enough" is a normative question and it's impossible to find a metric that's truly "fair". Equality-of-outcome politics is one of the most dogmatic and dangerous movements in recent years, and it's incredible that it gained acceptance in all elite circles without any pushback. It's something that is fundamentally broken and unjust, because of widespread group differences. Have people here read the article in OP? They mention differences in education in different demographic groups. These aren't the only differences, so for example South Asians may be more likely to be engineers, but will be underrepresented in other industries, because of differences in majors and career preferences. Should equality be legislated? Fight for equality of opportunity, and basta. This is a highly politicized and dogmatic movement that's trying to engineer the perfect society, and thinks there won't be any consequences.
  - ftrflyr 10y ago
    Yes, yes, yes. I anticipate your comment will be down voted because HN is predominately liberal.
    - pc86 10y ago
      It won't be, because it adds to the discussion and is a coherent point. Yours (and mine!), on the other hand...
  - concinds 10y ago
brilliantcode 10y ago
Looking at history of US, Asian Americans are going through what Jewish Americans did 100 years ago.
voidr 10y ago
Lot of these studies overlook the fact that it might have more to do with culture than race, also, I didn't see them try to do their experiments in reverse, maybe 'Asians' have bad stereotypes towards others that set them back as well. > As the population of workers in the United States changes, so too should models for leaders. There is no proof for this, maybe there is a reason why in general us white boys are better at leading people. What people overlook as well is that leadership is not just unicorns and rainbows, as a leader you will get a ton of abuse from your bosses and have to deal with the complaints of your subordinates, maybe white men in general are just better at handling this. Maybe we would be better off with more 'Asian' or 'women' leaders, but maybe not, there is no proof that having a white men majority in leadership roles is a bad thing for society. > In the meantime, businesses should focus on determining the competencies needed to fulfill a leadership job and then select leaders who fit the requirements rather than leadership stereotypes. If we do this, it is likely that more minorities and women will reach the top. It's not always the most competent people who ascend to leadership roles. There is a good reason for this: the most highly skilled people sometimes just lack social skills and as a result would be lousy leaders. I'd wish there would be studies that would look at people in a rock, paper and scissors kind of way that would ignore race and focus on culture instead, something like Myers–Briggs.

58 points by kungfudoi 10y ago

It would be interesting to correlate this with time of residency in the US. Of the companies cited, Google and Intel are in the top 20 H1B visa sponsors, so a sizable percentage of those Asian American employees might have been in the US for only a few years (and hired specifically to be individual contributors) http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx

ksk 10y ago

I think this article is quite poor. It doesn't explain why you would expect there to be more Asians in the first place. Asians are over-represented in STEM fields. You could just as well ask a general question about "nerds" not getting hired into executive positions.

nylonstrung 10y ago
Likewise even in finance there is serious overrepresentation at the junior levels (and overwhelming overrepresentation in terms of applicants) yet the same near total absence of Asian leadership

Torgo 10y ago

>It is time to rethink the “good leader” prototype of being masculine, dictatorial, and charismatic. Good luck, there's a reason those attributes are dominant.

jchrisa 10y ago
But they don't correlate with shareholder value.
salmonet 10y ago
Agreed. Anecdotally, uncharismatic, feminine pushovers seem to be less effective in leadership positions.
n00b101 10y ago
">It is time to rethink the “good leader” prototype of being masculine, dictatorial, and charismatic. Good luck, there's a reason those attributes are dominant." I agree, and I think it is a ridiculous and offensive conclusion that the authors are making here. They are perpetuating a stereotype of Asians based on a claim that "Eastern cultural norms encourage humility and deference to authority." Firstly, this claim is not based on any data. I am reluctant to accept the stereotype that everyone in Asia is the opposite of "masculine, dictatorial, and charismatic," especially people who are candidates for positions of leadership. Did anyone go to Asian companies and see that all their executives are all feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers? Secondly, even if we take this claim of an "inferior leadership culture" seriously, it can only logically apply to unassimilated Asian immigrants. What about Asian Americans, people who are born here? Are we to believe that they are all also all "feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers?" This seems like a post hoc, pseudo-scientific justification for what is really an executive and baord level diversity issue.
- nylonstrung 10y ago
  >Did anyone go to Asian companies and see that all their executives are all feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers? Racist stereotypes don't have to be logical. >Are we to believe that they are all also all "feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers?" When is the last time you've seen media depict an Asian male as sexual virile? When is the last time you've seen an Asian male kiss a woman on screen in Western media. For every one instance I can think of 10 depictions of exactly what you described. I say this not because the media is solely the cause of these perceptions but it is clearly representative of the greater societal attitudes at play here.
drewrv 10y ago
I doubt the reason is that those traits make a good leader. More likely its's because we're all 96% chimpanzee.
__derek__ 10y ago
Yes, confirmation bias and superstition.
- acedinlowball 10y ago
  Wrong.
EdHominem 10y ago
Sure, because in the past if you disagreed those people would have killed you and taken what they wanted. Now we just give it to them to avoid the strife. But there's very little (none?) evidence that a traditional "strong" (bully) leader is more effective than a committee. Modern businesses tend to understand this because they appoint a strong CEOs but manage them with a board which retains ultimate power. Sadly, this wisdom has yet to reach the electorate. When we elect a bully we give them free run. (Even in a country like Canada with the Prime Minster chosen by the party, the party rarely controls them.)

terda12 10y ago

I'm not a business leader by any means so keep that in mind. I'm an Asian, and I don't see this as a problem tbh. American leaders have, historically, tend to be white men (think the first 49 presidents). We're definitely starting to see diversity in leadership positions. Obama, Sundar Pichai of Google, Satya Nadella of Microsoft, Yishan Wong/Ellen Pao of Reddit are some examples that come to my mind. Even Ellen Pao, who received flak for some reddit drama, was never criticized for being an Asian female. So yeah I'm not too worried. I think we're seeing a shift towards a more diverse country for sure. It won't happen overnight but it's definitely shifting.

mc32 10y ago
That and there are a number of under the radar small to mid sized businesses (tech and non-tech) founded by Asians which are not publicly run companies who for the most part are run by Asians (mostly of the same ethnicity, but not always).
novia 10y ago
> Even Ellen Pao, who received flak for some reddit drama, was never criticized for being an Asian female. Yes she was. They referred to her as "Chairman Pao" as well as other racist and sexist slurs which I do not care to repeat.
- chipperyman573 10y ago
  Wasn't she on the board of Reddit? Making her a chairman (or is the PC way to say that chairwoman and you're trying to make this a sex issue)
  - novia 10y ago
    Ok, fine, here is a link to a comment from a year ago that is both racist and sexist: https://www.reddit.com/r/opieandanthony/comments/36mx0n/reddit_ceo_ellen_pao_its_not_our_sites_goal_to_be/crfbssl/ https://www.reddit.com/r/opieandanthony/comments/36mx0n/redd... The Chairman Pao nickname was used to draw comparisons between Ellen Pao and Chairman Mao. Yeah, not racist at all.

Spooky23 10y ago

Senior leadership is a club. People like to work with their friends, and the qualification to be a high level person in many situations has low correlation to skill. Once you get in the club, you move up. I think South Asian asians do better here as many have excellent language skills. East Asians have a disadvantage there, and cultural friction makes it hard for "ABC" chinese. IMO it's less a glass ceiling for asians and more that people will take care of their tribe first. (ie. companies who only want to talk to Stanford alum, etc) You see this in government. One city agency that I consulted with had a disproportionate number orthodox jewish folks and east africans in leadership positions -- associates of the boss and deputy boss. In a county in another state, all of the leadership of verticals were Indian from a specific region whose name escapes me. Corporations are different, because corporate leadership is more incestuous and boards lack real power over hiring anyone outside the club, unlike a Mayor, Governor, etc who has total control.

samspenc 10y ago
> cultural friction makes it hard for "ABC" chinese Can you clarify what you mean by "cultural friction"? I always thought that "ABCs" and "ABCDs" (Indians born in the US) were better at integrating with workplaces here than those coming from Asia?
- sushid 10y ago
  Not the parent commenter but I believe the parent's saying that even ABCs (or ABCDs) have a lower chance of being in said tribe than say, a fellow white alum with a similar socioeconomic background.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  I'm not an expert on this (Not a psychologist, don't play one on TV), but I took a lot of East Asian studies classes and did a fairly substantial research project as an undergrad on the topic. Our team interviewed about 120 young Chinese people at our university and neighboring schools. About 75% were ABC, 25% immigrants. As I recall, the dominant theme from the ABC kids was a dichotomy of different expectations and pressures. Examples: - They found themselves in a position of go-between with folks outside their family at a young age. One person described being the translator for their dad in buying a car at age 10. - They had an intense pressure to succeed. They felt that family was struggling mostly to provide them with the tools for success. One person's mother worked 90 hours a week in traditional immigrant gigs at a laundromat (pressing shirts overnight) and restaurant. - Simultaneously, the older generation of grandparents and family abroad saw them as decadent americans. People outside the family saw them as foreigners -- they would be asked in the street if they spoke english or knew about America. Many described rebuke for their clothing, differences in education, etc. A few talked about over-compensating and trying to be "the ultimate white kid", but not really identifying with that persona. I walked away from that project with a deep and profound respect for the folks we talked to and the differences in perspective and even thought process. My grandparents were immigrants and talked to me often about their experience... but being an Irish immigrant in 1940s NYC, while a struggle is a very different when you're bridging language and big cultural gaps. My parents, aunts and uncles very clearly identified as Americans, and nobody inside of outside the family questioned that.

brighteyes 10y ago

This is an important topic, but as often happens, the article just treads the same old themes. It's looking for answers in the usual places, when it's not clear the answers are there. First of all, Asian Americans are still overrepresented in tech leadership positions. Just less than they are overrepresented in tech positions in general. So looking for a negative (discriminatory) effect may be the wrong thing - we may need to look for less of a positive effect instead. That's harder to do, of course. Second, while the stereotypes described in the article may well play a role here, there are other explanations that are overlooked but may matter as much or more. We know that height is a significant factor in earning and in particular in getting to leadership positions. It's of comparable effect to the gender gap, but not as studied, because it's not "interesting" - US culture is focused on looking for discrimination on the familiar axes of race, gender and sexuality. But just like height might explain women's relatively low leadership rates, it might explain Asian American's, as they tend to be shorter.

rubber_duck 10y ago
>But just like height might explain women's relatively low leadership rates, it might explain Asian American's, as they tend to be shorter. If anything it would be more probable that the causation goes the other way arround.
n00b101 10y ago
> "Asian Americans are still overrepresented in tech leadership positions." No, the article clearly states that they are under-represented. It cites 2015 report on diversity looking at 5 Silicon Valley companies: Google, Hewlett-Packard, Intel, LinkedIn, and Yahoo. The report finds that, "Asians and Asian Americans are well represented in lower-level positions but underrepresented at management and executive levels. Asian Americans (including Indians) are 27% of the workers in these companies, but only 19% of managers and 14% of executives. In contrast, whites represented 62% of professionals and 80% of executives in these firms." > "We know that height is a significant factor in earning and in particular in getting to leadership positions. It's of comparable effect to the gender gap..." Height being a "confounding variable" in discrimination against both Asians and women seems like an interesting theory, but it doesn't fit the facts from the article :"This is worse than the glass ceiling effect that’s been identified for women; in these five firms, men are 42% more likely to have an executive role than women, and white men and women are 154% more likely than Asians to hold an executive role. And Asians represent only 1.5% of corporate officer positions in the Fortune 500" I am also reluctant to accept your stereotype of "short Asian men" (South and East Asian) without seeing any data specifically on the distribution of heights of American Asian males versus American white males. I suspect that the difference is not as large as you make it out be.

douche 10y ago

Take a look at the demographics of the Ivy League and the other schools in the traditional pipeline to leadership and power. Give it twenty years. This will also start getting well into the meat of the second and third generations of those who came to the US after the relaxation of exclusionary immigration laws[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_immigration_to_the_United_States#Phasing_out_of_exclusionary_policies_.281943-1965.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_immigration_to_the_Unite...

throwaw12ay 10y ago

America has this weird obsession with race and dividing everything by race. Since when "Asian" is a race? It's so weird that people in US need to choose their race on a form when applying for college or even for a job, or on a census. So you can't be just american, you need to be Asian american or something american, like being american is not enough to constitute a nationality or an identity.

ftrflyr 10y ago
No need for a throw away here. The US has been far too liberal / progressive for too long. The scale will tip back to conservative for the next 4 - 8+ years I predict. This is natural. Also, take a look at Canada (a 3 party system). Anytime liberals go too far left, the conservatives reel them back in. Anytime conservatives go too far right, the liberals reel them back in. A third party (independent) ensures this process happens. We (the US) as a two party system will always go through either being too far left or right. This is why there needs to be a third party.
drewrv 10y ago
The US has a long and nasty history of racism. We need to collect racial data in order to see if we're fixing it or not. To refuse on principal to collect race data in education or criminal justice would obscure real problems and be akin to burying our head in the sand.
- ftrflyr 10y ago
  This problem is not limited to the US. China, India, and the rest of the world has and have had the same problem here.
- stcredzero 10y ago
  The US has a long and nasty history of racism. Culture in the Americas was particularly afflicted by class becoming associated with race. There was rampant indentured servitude in Korea hundreds of years ago, basically slavery with different formalities. (I've been told that my surname makes it likely my family is descended from such people.) No one really cares about it any more, because we are fairly racially homogeneous. There is something particularly nasty about making an inborn trait a kind of "brand" of class status. Racism is weirdly and deeply rooted in US culture. A friend of mine started a gay Asian men's group in Seattle in the last century. He then had to start a 2nd one with a by-law limiting attendance to Asians, because the 1st one had become a pick-up scene for middle-aged white men to find a "Rice Queen." My 20's and 30's were punctuated with the occasional weird transgression from older white men. Much of my youth and childhood were punctuated with rare but memorable occasions of racial/ethnic harassment. I went on a date with a fellow musician who was born in Thailand, and in conversation I realized that an uncomfortably large portion of her flirting history consisted of white men doing things like putting their hand on her thigh in public while talking about prostitutes. There's something about US culture that seems to be enabling for a fairly extreme level of transgression by some small part of the populace towards Asians, which also results in ethnic self-hatred in American born Asians. My current China born girlfriend has a Ph. D. and an MBA, and she thinks the notion that Asian guys are somehow sexually inferior/unattractive/noncompetitive to be bizarre. Yet, I've had multiple discussions on reddit and Hacker News, where commenters promulgated such weird ideas of inherent Asian inferiority! The reason why I particularly dislike intellectually bankrupt SJW ideology, is precisely because I know that it has a point! There are weird racial attitudes in various subcultures in the US. It is something that is very hard to pin down and discuss, yet needs to be explored. Representing such a thing badly is precisely the best way to ensure it never gets discussed usefully.

sametmax 10y ago

How many white or black do you see in a leadership position in China ? In India ? In Thailand ? This is not an american thing.

ftrflyr 10y ago
I agree. Articles such as this are divisive and lead to polarizing viewpoints. Perhaps it is time we hire and promote based on ability and not race, gender, color, etc. edit: You can down vote me all you want. Every single person that does is out of touch with reality. As such, this is a clear example as to why Trump was elected. Downvoters will need to change their attitudes are get left behind. We are in fact, moving towards a more conservative country dynamic.
callinyouin 10y ago
It might not be, but consider the demographics. Asian Americans make up 5.6% of the population (according to Wikipedia). In any of the countries listed, white/black people surely make up a much, much smaller percentage.
- ftrflyr 10y ago
  It is inaccurate to use the total 5.6% here. What percentage of the 5.6% depicts Asian males who are an appropriate age to hold a leadership position? I am certain the percentage is drastically lower; 0 - 1% perhaps.
  - callinyouin 10y ago
    That's fair, but then that "rule" would also apply to the number of white/black people in the countries listed, making it lower. Doesn't make the point of considering demographics any less valid.
    - ftrflyr 10y ago
      It is my assumption that white males living in these countries are old enough to hold leadership positions. One can safely assume a 12 year old is not immigrating to China to live / work.

dsl 10y ago

Why aren't more black women leading companies in Asia?

omot 10y ago

Asians are 5% of US population, Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella are CEO of major tech companies. I'm Asian and I feel like our demographic is overrepresented in some sense.

chrisco255 10y ago

Statistical fallacies abound in this article. One thought I had while reading it, is that what is the average tenure in those companies among Asians vs. whites? It can take years to get into leadership roles. Leadership numbers are lagging indicators. A lot of immigration has occurred in the last 15 years, especially with the H1-B visas and my theory is that Asian makeup of companies has increased steadily in that time frame.

nylonstrung 10y ago
Do you think Silicon Valley had a shortage of Asians in 2000? The thought process behind what you said is correct but not in light of the fact that Asians have been one of the most educated groups in the country for over 20s years. There still is a severe underrepresentation even when you factor that into account
- chrisco255 10y ago
  I don't think the percentage of entry-level technical employees was 27% in 2000, based on immigration trends, I highly doubt it.

jeffdavis 10y ago

Why do we expect uniform outcomes from diverse people? Say two groups are different enough that, when you put them together, you call that "diversity". Why do you expect them to be statistically identical when you divide the groups apart again? Prejudice in career advancement and other important decisions is bad, of course. People should be judged on their own merits, not group statistics. But that doesn't mean that group statistical differences are necessarily due to prejudice.

concinds 10y ago
This. Why should America reflect world diversity? And how could it? Are there not enough whites in executive positions in Asia? The question doesn't make sense, because "enough" is a normative question and it's impossible to find a metric that's truly "fair". Equality-of-outcome politics is one of the most dogmatic and dangerous movements in recent years, and it's incredible that it gained acceptance in all elite circles without any pushback. It's something that is fundamentally broken and unjust, because of widespread group differences. Have people here read the article in OP? They mention differences in education in different demographic groups. These aren't the only differences, so for example South Asians may be more likely to be engineers, but will be underrepresented in other industries, because of differences in majors and career preferences. Should equality be legislated? Fight for equality of opportunity, and basta. This is a highly politicized and dogmatic movement that's trying to engineer the perfect society, and thinks there won't be any consequences.
- ftrflyr 10y ago
  Yes, yes, yes. I anticipate your comment will be down voted because HN is predominately liberal.
  - pc86 10y ago
    It won't be, because it adds to the discussion and is a coherent point. Yours (and mine!), on the other hand...
- concinds 10y ago

brilliantcode 10y ago

Looking at history of US, Asian Americans are going through what Jewish Americans did 100 years ago.

voidr 10y ago

Lot of these studies overlook the fact that it might have more to do with culture than race, also, I didn't see them try to do their experiments in reverse, maybe 'Asians' have bad stereotypes towards others that set them back as well. > As the population of workers in the United States changes, so too should models for leaders. There is no proof for this, maybe there is a reason why in general us white boys are better at leading people. What people overlook as well is that leadership is not just unicorns and rainbows, as a leader you will get a ton of abuse from your bosses and have to deal with the complaints of your subordinates, maybe white men in general are just better at handling this. Maybe we would be better off with more 'Asian' or 'women' leaders, but maybe not, there is no proof that having a white men majority in leadership roles is a bad thing for society. > In the meantime, businesses should focus on determining the competencies needed to fulfill a leadership job and then select leaders who fit the requirements rather than leadership stereotypes. If we do this, it is likely that more minorities and women will reach the top. It's not always the most competent people who ascend to leadership roles. There is a good reason for this: the most highly skilled people sometimes just lack social skills and as a result would be lousy leaders. I'd wish there would be studies that would look at people in a rock, paper and scissors kind of way that would ignore race and focus on culture instead, something like Myers–Briggs.