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Torvalds is an abusive leader and I don't understand why people keep workin on Linux under him. Are kernel devs paid? Is it worth being abused in front of the e

Torvalds is an abusive leader and I don't understand why people keep workin on Linux under him. Are kernel devs paid? Is it worth being abused in front of the entire world because your boss has the emotional maturity of a child?

dragonbonheur 10y ago
Who would work on Linux if Torvalds was ousted as the leader of the Kernel Team? It would be one more project that would have died out in a sea of dead open source projects.
- SixSigma 10y ago
  So Linux will die when Linus dies ? That's a good reason to not use Linux
  - dragonbonheur 10y ago
    Are you still using Visicalc, released 37 years ago? If everything goes right and Linus lives up to his mid-80's even at that minimum, those years will be several life times for a single software project to live. There's a much better chance that kernel writing would have been fully automated by AI or evolved through much advanced genetic algorithms by the time Linus Torvalds passes away.
    - SixSigma 10y ago
      I still regularly use my 8-bit from 1983 but that's irrelevant. Linus could die tomorrow, and then what?
- lima 10y ago
  One of his top-level maintainers. Probably Greg Koah-Hartman. You aren't seriously suggesting that the future of Linux (one of the largest open-source projects backed by multi-billion companies) depends on one single guy?
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    And watch the kernel crapify over night as GKH lets his Freedesktop friends, like say Kay Sievers, run rampant...
shakna 10y ago
Is strong language and high standards abusive? I can understand how some take personal offense when faced with criticism, but it is little more than that. Linus is quite good at illustrating the problems with the code, backing up what he says with extensive knowledge. As soon as someone owns their mistake, the problem moves towards resolution. It is really not uncommon for strong language to emerge when dealing with people doing the wrong thing, especially when they should know better. I have stripped down and been stripped down when dealing with crap before. Trying not to offend skips around the issue: it's crap, and you should know better.
- ivraatiems 10y ago
  These are not just instances of "strong language," these are personal attacks. Linus never differentiates between the problem and the person. He just yells and insults. There's a difference between not trying to not offend, and going out of your way to offend. It's entirely possible, and indeed normal and accepted, to communicate in a straightforward and clear way without insulting people. Linus could do that. He chooses not to.
  - shakna 10y ago
    Where is the personal attack? [0] I very much doubt Linus goes out of his way to offend, rather that he's a Finn, and their culture tends to be blunt. I'm Australian. I'm blunt, and to the point. A colleague left a backdoor in software that got deployed. The conversation started with, "What the fuck where you thinking?" Nobody got offended, it was a valid question with valid tone. You can't exactly compare, "You didn't test this." with some of the rants broadcast on shows like, "Kitchen Nightmares". [0] http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html
    - ivraatiems 10y ago
      "This is shit, get your act together" is more than just blunt, it's rude and insulting. Plus this is just one relatively small incident out of many many over the years. Professional communication in a public setting means not being rude and offensive. If my best friend shows me something and I say "what the fuck were you thinking?", that's one thing. That's not what's happening here. What would be lost by Linus just saying "this clearly doesn't work. Don't submit things without compile-testing in the future."?
inimino 10y ago
Why do you feel the need to have an opinion on this? Does it affect you personally? By the way, Linus isn't their boss. Maybe you should find out how the project is organized before commenting on it.
- ivraatiems 10y ago
  Why shouldn't someone have an opinion on things? Who are you to tell the parent commenter not to? Linus is the de facto head honcho and enjoys special privilege.
  - inimino 10y ago
    When someone has no clue about the motivations or relationships of the people involved, what is the point of expressing an ignorance-based opinion?
    - ivraatiems 10y ago
      It's a public mailing list. All you have to do is read it. You didn't answer my questions. Plus, you talk about not having standing to express an opinion, but that's precisely what you're doing.
      - inimino 10y ago
        Okay, I'll answer them. > Why shouldn't someone have an opinion on things? The commenter I replied to doesn't know whether kernel devs are paid, thinks this is a case of getting yelled at by your boss, and seems to not understand why people work on the project. Does that answer your question? > Who are you to tell the parent commenter not to? The parent commenter is calling someone "abusive" in a situation that they clearly aren't involved in and seem pretty clueless about. If I suggest they not do that, does it really matter who I am?
        ivraatiems 10y ago
        Setting aside different definitions of what constitutes abuse, what's wrong with calling out abusive behavior when you see it?
geofft 10y ago
> Are kernel devs paid? Is it worth being abused in front of the entire world because your boss has the emotional maturity of a child? Yes, kind of - there's a significant business advantage in having your company's work be included in the upstream kernel, so it's often the case that some individual is employed and paid a good salary by Intel or someone and their job involves getting code into Linux or maintaining it in Linux. Which leads to the weird situation where you're bound by the feedback / technical direction of this person who isn't in turn answerable to your company. This isn't exclusive to Linux alone; the same thing happens in other open-source communities.
tinus_hn 10y ago
The worst language he used is 'piece-of-shit' and it was directed at a thing someone produced, not at a person. And then the person apologized because the quality of that thing indeed was bad. You are calling Linus Torvalds a person with 'the emotional maturity of a child' which is a personal attack and far more abusive.

dragonbonheur 10y ago

Who would work on Linux if Torvalds was ousted as the leader of the Kernel Team? It would be one more project that would have died out in a sea of dead open source projects.

SixSigma 10y ago
So Linux will die when Linus dies ? That's a good reason to not use Linux
- dragonbonheur 10y ago
  Are you still using Visicalc, released 37 years ago? If everything goes right and Linus lives up to his mid-80's even at that minimum, those years will be several life times for a single software project to live. There's a much better chance that kernel writing would have been fully automated by AI or evolved through much advanced genetic algorithms by the time Linus Torvalds passes away.
  - SixSigma 10y ago
    I still regularly use my 8-bit from 1983 but that's irrelevant. Linus could die tomorrow, and then what?
lima 10y ago
One of his top-level maintainers. Probably Greg Koah-Hartman. You aren't seriously suggesting that the future of Linux (one of the largest open-source projects backed by multi-billion companies) depends on one single guy?
- digi_owl 10y ago
  And watch the kernel crapify over night as GKH lets his Freedesktop friends, like say Kay Sievers, run rampant...

shakna 10y ago

Is strong language and high standards abusive? I can understand how some take personal offense when faced with criticism, but it is little more than that. Linus is quite good at illustrating the problems with the code, backing up what he says with extensive knowledge. As soon as someone owns their mistake, the problem moves towards resolution. It is really not uncommon for strong language to emerge when dealing with people doing the wrong thing, especially when they should know better. I have stripped down and been stripped down when dealing with crap before. Trying not to offend skips around the issue: it's crap, and you should know better.

ivraatiems 10y ago
These are not just instances of "strong language," these are personal attacks. Linus never differentiates between the problem and the person. He just yells and insults. There's a difference between not trying to not offend, and going out of your way to offend. It's entirely possible, and indeed normal and accepted, to communicate in a straightforward and clear way without insulting people. Linus could do that. He chooses not to.
- shakna 10y ago
  Where is the personal attack? [0] I very much doubt Linus goes out of his way to offend, rather that he's a Finn, and their culture tends to be blunt. I'm Australian. I'm blunt, and to the point. A colleague left a backdoor in software that got deployed. The conversation started with, "What the fuck where you thinking?" Nobody got offended, it was a valid question with valid tone. You can't exactly compare, "You didn't test this." with some of the rants broadcast on shows like, "Kitchen Nightmares". [0] http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html
  - ivraatiems 10y ago
    "This is shit, get your act together" is more than just blunt, it's rude and insulting. Plus this is just one relatively small incident out of many many over the years. Professional communication in a public setting means not being rude and offensive. If my best friend shows me something and I say "what the fuck were you thinking?", that's one thing. That's not what's happening here. What would be lost by Linus just saying "this clearly doesn't work. Don't submit things without compile-testing in the future."?

inimino 10y ago

Why do you feel the need to have an opinion on this? Does it affect you personally? By the way, Linus isn't their boss. Maybe you should find out how the project is organized before commenting on it.

ivraatiems 10y ago
Why shouldn't someone have an opinion on things? Who are you to tell the parent commenter not to? Linus is the de facto head honcho and enjoys special privilege.
- inimino 10y ago
  When someone has no clue about the motivations or relationships of the people involved, what is the point of expressing an ignorance-based opinion?
  - ivraatiems 10y ago
    It's a public mailing list. All you have to do is read it. You didn't answer my questions. Plus, you talk about not having standing to express an opinion, but that's precisely what you're doing.
    - inimino 10y ago
      Okay, I'll answer them. > Why shouldn't someone have an opinion on things? The commenter I replied to doesn't know whether kernel devs are paid, thinks this is a case of getting yelled at by your boss, and seems to not understand why people work on the project. Does that answer your question? > Who are you to tell the parent commenter not to? The parent commenter is calling someone "abusive" in a situation that they clearly aren't involved in and seem pretty clueless about. If I suggest they not do that, does it really matter who I am?
      - ivraatiems 10y ago
        Setting aside different definitions of what constitutes abuse, what's wrong with calling out abusive behavior when you see it?

geofft 10y ago

> Are kernel devs paid? Is it worth being abused in front of the entire world because your boss has the emotional maturity of a child? Yes, kind of - there's a significant business advantage in having your company's work be included in the upstream kernel, so it's often the case that some individual is employed and paid a good salary by Intel or someone and their job involves getting code into Linux or maintaining it in Linux. Which leads to the weird situation where you're bound by the feedback / technical direction of this person who isn't in turn answerable to your company. This isn't exclusive to Linux alone; the same thing happens in other open-source communities.

tinus_hn 10y ago

The worst language he used is 'piece-of-shit' and it was directed at a thing someone produced, not at a person. And then the person apologized because the quality of that thing indeed was bad. You are calling Linus Torvalds a person with 'the emotional maturity of a child' which is a personal attack and far more abusive.