7 ms·

'Upset' Linus Torvalds gets sweary and gets results

13 points by dragonbonheur 10y ago

arkitaip 10y ago
Torvalds is an abusive leader and I don't understand why people keep workin on Linux under him. Are kernel devs paid? Is it worth being abused in front of the entire world because your boss has the emotional maturity of a child?
- dragonbonheur 10y ago
  Who would work on Linux if Torvalds was ousted as the leader of the Kernel Team? It would be one more project that would have died out in a sea of dead open source projects.
  - SixSigma 10y ago
    So Linux will die when Linus dies ? That's a good reason to not use Linux
    - dragonbonheur 10y ago
      Are you still using Visicalc, released 37 years ago? If everything goes right and Linus lives up to his mid-80's even at that minimum, those years will be several life times for a single software project to live. There's a much better chance that kernel writing would have been fully automated by AI or evolved through much advanced genetic algorithms by the time Linus Torvalds passes away.
      - SixSigma 10y ago
        I still regularly use my 8-bit from 1983 but that's irrelevant. Linus could die tomorrow, and then what?
  - lima 10y ago
    One of his top-level maintainers. Probably Greg Koah-Hartman. You aren't seriously suggesting that the future of Linux (one of the largest open-source projects backed by multi-billion companies) depends on one single guy?
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      And watch the kernel crapify over night as GKH lets his Freedesktop friends, like say Kay Sievers, run rampant...
- shakna 10y ago
  Is strong language and high standards abusive? I can understand how some take personal offense when faced with criticism, but it is little more than that. Linus is quite good at illustrating the problems with the code, backing up what he says with extensive knowledge. As soon as someone owns their mistake, the problem moves towards resolution. It is really not uncommon for strong language to emerge when dealing with people doing the wrong thing, especially when they should know better. I have stripped down and been stripped down when dealing with crap before. Trying not to offend skips around the issue: it's crap, and you should know better.
  - ivraatiems 10y ago
    These are not just instances of "strong language," these are personal attacks. Linus never differentiates between the problem and the person. He just yells and insults. There's a difference between not trying to not offend, and going out of your way to offend. It's entirely possible, and indeed normal and accepted, to communicate in a straightforward and clear way without insulting people. Linus could do that. He chooses not to.
    - shakna 10y ago
      Where is the personal attack? [0] I very much doubt Linus goes out of his way to offend, rather that he's a Finn, and their culture tends to be blunt. I'm Australian. I'm blunt, and to the point. A colleague left a backdoor in software that got deployed. The conversation started with, "What the fuck where you thinking?" Nobody got offended, it was a valid question with valid tone. You can't exactly compare, "You didn't test this." with some of the rants broadcast on shows like, "Kitchen Nightmares". [0] http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html
      - ivraatiems 10y ago
        "This is shit, get your act together" is more than just blunt, it's rude and insulting. Plus this is just one relatively small incident out of many many over the years. Professional communication in a public setting means not being rude and offensive. If my best friend shows me something and I say "what the fuck were you thinking?", that's one thing. That's not what's happening here. What would be lost by Linus just saying "this clearly doesn't work. Don't submit things without compile-testing in the future."?
- inimino 10y ago
  Why do you feel the need to have an opinion on this? Does it affect you personally? By the way, Linus isn't their boss. Maybe you should find out how the project is organized before commenting on it.
  - ivraatiems 10y ago
    Why shouldn't someone have an opinion on things? Who are you to tell the parent commenter not to? Linus is the de facto head honcho and enjoys special privilege.
    - inimino 10y ago
      When someone has no clue about the motivations or relationships of the people involved, what is the point of expressing an ignorance-based opinion?
      - ivraatiems 10y ago
        It's a public mailing list. All you have to do is read it. You didn't answer my questions. Plus, you talk about not having standing to express an opinion, but that's precisely what you're doing.
        inimino 10y ago
        Okay, I'll answer them. > Why shouldn't someone have an opinion on things? The commenter I replied to doesn't know whether kernel devs are paid, thinks this is a case of getting yelled at by your boss, and seems to not understand why people work on the project. Does that answer your question? > Who are you to tell the parent commenter not to? The parent commenter is calling someone "abusive" in a situation that they clearly aren't involved in and seem pretty clueless about. If I suggest they not do that, does it really matter who I am?
        ivraatiems 10y ago
        Setting aside different definitions of what constitutes abuse, what's wrong with calling out abusive behavior when you see it?
- geofft 10y ago
  > Are kernel devs paid? Is it worth being abused in front of the entire world because your boss has the emotional maturity of a child? Yes, kind of - there's a significant business advantage in having your company's work be included in the upstream kernel, so it's often the case that some individual is employed and paid a good salary by Intel or someone and their job involves getting code into Linux or maintaining it in Linux. Which leads to the weird situation where you're bound by the feedback / technical direction of this person who isn't in turn answerable to your company. This isn't exclusive to Linux alone; the same thing happens in other open-source communities.
- tinus_hn 10y ago
  The worst language he used is 'piece-of-shit' and it was directed at a thing someone produced, not at a person. And then the person apologized because the quality of that thing indeed was bad. You are calling Linus Torvalds a person with 'the emotional maturity of a child' which is a personal attack and far more abusive.
ivraatiems 10y ago
I've posted many, many times here on how abusive and gross Linus's conduct is. It continues to flabbergast me just how many people leap to his defense. He doesn't need defending. The people he insults do.
TempleOS 10y ago
I wrote everything from scratch. I started with TASM on DOS in 1993 and wrote my own compiler in 2004. It is a unique language. A nigger doesn't seem to understand that a white man can invent a language when he makes a compiler. A lot of people think that the INtel chip runs C. They don't understand what a compiler does. They think you cannot make a compiler.
emblem21 10y ago
Step 1.) Fork Linux Step 2.) echo "no big meanies plz :(" > CoC.md Step 3.) git add .;git commit -m "i'm helping"; git push You have solved the problem.
- geofft 10y ago
  You say that as if that doesn't happen already - there's quite a bit of code that's maintained collaboratively between the various Linux distros because upstream is too interested in being a meanie to merge needed and working code. Secure boot support comes to mind, but there's a lot of other stuff.
fosco 10y ago
I'm not defending him, but looking for an opportunity to learn. can anyone recommend a way to improve communication to be nicer? i.e. It appears this branch does not even compile, please check this before submitting in the future? and also identifying the root cause, "this type of error can be avoided in the future by allocated more time to testing before submitting.? thoughts? I guess its much easier to respond how Linus did out of frustration...
- inimino 10y ago
  It is also possible that he communicates that way by choice, to establish and maintain a baseline expectation for future behavior.
  - ivraatiems 10y ago
    Yes, and that baseline expectation is "I am abusive and hurtful and you all have to deal with it because I run this place. Good luck." I wouldn't work for someone with that expectation.
    - inimino 10y ago
      Well, most people wouldn't work with Steve Jobs by choice either, but a few did.
      - ivraatiems 10y ago
        That doesn't make those people deserving of abuse, it just indicates they were willing to subject themselves to it in service of something. What's your point?
        inimino 10y ago
        My point? Certain personality characteristics can get results. Was there another person out there with all of Jobs's abilities but none of the rough edges? Some people are sweetly manipulative, personally I'd rather work with someone who occasionally swears. My overall position in this thread is somewhere between "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" and "don't kibitz if you don't know the game".
justin66 10y ago
Of all the things that are noteworthy in this email thread, Linus calling the branch a piece-of-shit seems the least of them. http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html
mikebay 10y ago
Mr Linus need to be careful, he can be censured, he's online accounts could be deleted, He's site could endup blacklisted and ofcause he could be fined or jailed of "hate speech"? My opinion "Management by Perkele" is part of everyone's freedom of speech. Mr Linus, I hope you continue to be you and talk exactly like you want.
digi_owl 10y ago
> On the internet nobody can hear you being subtle. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds

13 points by dragonbonheur 10y ago

Torvalds is an abusive leader and I don't understand why people keep workin on Linux under him. Are kernel devs paid? Is it worth being abused in front of the entire world because your boss has the emotional maturity of a child?

dragonbonheur 10y ago
Who would work on Linux if Torvalds was ousted as the leader of the Kernel Team? It would be one more project that would have died out in a sea of dead open source projects.
- SixSigma 10y ago
  So Linux will die when Linus dies ? That's a good reason to not use Linux
  - dragonbonheur 10y ago
    Are you still using Visicalc, released 37 years ago? If everything goes right and Linus lives up to his mid-80's even at that minimum, those years will be several life times for a single software project to live. There's a much better chance that kernel writing would have been fully automated by AI or evolved through much advanced genetic algorithms by the time Linus Torvalds passes away.
    - SixSigma 10y ago
      I still regularly use my 8-bit from 1983 but that's irrelevant. Linus could die tomorrow, and then what?
- lima 10y ago
  One of his top-level maintainers. Probably Greg Koah-Hartman. You aren't seriously suggesting that the future of Linux (one of the largest open-source projects backed by multi-billion companies) depends on one single guy?
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    And watch the kernel crapify over night as GKH lets his Freedesktop friends, like say Kay Sievers, run rampant...
shakna 10y ago
Is strong language and high standards abusive? I can understand how some take personal offense when faced with criticism, but it is little more than that. Linus is quite good at illustrating the problems with the code, backing up what he says with extensive knowledge. As soon as someone owns their mistake, the problem moves towards resolution. It is really not uncommon for strong language to emerge when dealing with people doing the wrong thing, especially when they should know better. I have stripped down and been stripped down when dealing with crap before. Trying not to offend skips around the issue: it's crap, and you should know better.
- ivraatiems 10y ago
  These are not just instances of "strong language," these are personal attacks. Linus never differentiates between the problem and the person. He just yells and insults. There's a difference between not trying to not offend, and going out of your way to offend. It's entirely possible, and indeed normal and accepted, to communicate in a straightforward and clear way without insulting people. Linus could do that. He chooses not to.
  - shakna 10y ago
    Where is the personal attack? [0] I very much doubt Linus goes out of his way to offend, rather that he's a Finn, and their culture tends to be blunt. I'm Australian. I'm blunt, and to the point. A colleague left a backdoor in software that got deployed. The conversation started with, "What the fuck where you thinking?" Nobody got offended, it was a valid question with valid tone. You can't exactly compare, "You didn't test this." with some of the rants broadcast on shows like, "Kitchen Nightmares". [0] http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html
    - ivraatiems 10y ago
      "This is shit, get your act together" is more than just blunt, it's rude and insulting. Plus this is just one relatively small incident out of many many over the years. Professional communication in a public setting means not being rude and offensive. If my best friend shows me something and I say "what the fuck were you thinking?", that's one thing. That's not what's happening here. What would be lost by Linus just saying "this clearly doesn't work. Don't submit things without compile-testing in the future."?
inimino 10y ago
Why do you feel the need to have an opinion on this? Does it affect you personally? By the way, Linus isn't their boss. Maybe you should find out how the project is organized before commenting on it.
- ivraatiems 10y ago
  Why shouldn't someone have an opinion on things? Who are you to tell the parent commenter not to? Linus is the de facto head honcho and enjoys special privilege.
  - inimino 10y ago
    When someone has no clue about the motivations or relationships of the people involved, what is the point of expressing an ignorance-based opinion?
    - ivraatiems 10y ago
      It's a public mailing list. All you have to do is read it. You didn't answer my questions. Plus, you talk about not having standing to express an opinion, but that's precisely what you're doing.
      - inimino 10y ago
        Okay, I'll answer them. > Why shouldn't someone have an opinion on things? The commenter I replied to doesn't know whether kernel devs are paid, thinks this is a case of getting yelled at by your boss, and seems to not understand why people work on the project. Does that answer your question? > Who are you to tell the parent commenter not to? The parent commenter is calling someone "abusive" in a situation that they clearly aren't involved in and seem pretty clueless about. If I suggest they not do that, does it really matter who I am?
        ivraatiems 10y ago
        Setting aside different definitions of what constitutes abuse, what's wrong with calling out abusive behavior when you see it?
geofft 10y ago
> Are kernel devs paid? Is it worth being abused in front of the entire world because your boss has the emotional maturity of a child? Yes, kind of - there's a significant business advantage in having your company's work be included in the upstream kernel, so it's often the case that some individual is employed and paid a good salary by Intel or someone and their job involves getting code into Linux or maintaining it in Linux. Which leads to the weird situation where you're bound by the feedback / technical direction of this person who isn't in turn answerable to your company. This isn't exclusive to Linux alone; the same thing happens in other open-source communities.
tinus_hn 10y ago
The worst language he used is 'piece-of-shit' and it was directed at a thing someone produced, not at a person. And then the person apologized because the quality of that thing indeed was bad. You are calling Linus Torvalds a person with 'the emotional maturity of a child' which is a personal attack and far more abusive.

ivraatiems 10y ago

I've posted many, many times here on how abusive and gross Linus's conduct is. It continues to flabbergast me just how many people leap to his defense. He doesn't need defending. The people he insults do.

TempleOS 10y ago

I wrote everything from scratch. I started with TASM on DOS in 1993 and wrote my own compiler in 2004. It is a unique language. A nigger doesn't seem to understand that a white man can invent a language when he makes a compiler. A lot of people think that the INtel chip runs C. They don't understand what a compiler does. They think you cannot make a compiler.

emblem21 10y ago

Step 1.) Fork Linux Step 2.) echo "no big meanies plz :(" > CoC.md Step 3.) git add .;git commit -m "i'm helping"; git push You have solved the problem.

geofft 10y ago
You say that as if that doesn't happen already - there's quite a bit of code that's maintained collaboratively between the various Linux distros because upstream is too interested in being a meanie to merge needed and working code. Secure boot support comes to mind, but there's a lot of other stuff.

fosco 10y ago

I'm not defending him, but looking for an opportunity to learn. can anyone recommend a way to improve communication to be nicer? i.e. It appears this branch does not even compile, please check this before submitting in the future? and also identifying the root cause, "this type of error can be avoided in the future by allocated more time to testing before submitting.? thoughts? I guess its much easier to respond how Linus did out of frustration...

inimino 10y ago
It is also possible that he communicates that way by choice, to establish and maintain a baseline expectation for future behavior.
- ivraatiems 10y ago
  Yes, and that baseline expectation is "I am abusive and hurtful and you all have to deal with it because I run this place. Good luck." I wouldn't work for someone with that expectation.
  - inimino 10y ago
    Well, most people wouldn't work with Steve Jobs by choice either, but a few did.
    - ivraatiems 10y ago
      That doesn't make those people deserving of abuse, it just indicates they were willing to subject themselves to it in service of something. What's your point?
      - inimino 10y ago
        My point? Certain personality characteristics can get results. Was there another person out there with all of Jobs's abilities but none of the rough edges? Some people are sweetly manipulative, personally I'd rather work with someone who occasionally swears. My overall position in this thread is somewhere between "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" and "don't kibitz if you don't know the game".

justin66 10y ago

Of all the things that are noteworthy in this email thread, Linus calling the branch a piece-of-shit seems the least of them. http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1612.2/00545.html

mikebay 10y ago

Mr Linus need to be careful, he can be censured, he's online accounts could be deleted, He's site could endup blacklisted and ofcause he could be fined or jailed of "hate speech"? My opinion "Management by Perkele" is part of everyone's freedom of speech. Mr Linus, I hope you continue to be you and talk exactly like you want.

digi_owl 10y ago

> On the internet nobody can hear you being subtle. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds