13 ms·

> they can always buy a few automatic weapons at any gun store Actually, you can't, at least not in the US, and that's been true for decades. Thinking that yo

by anamax 17y ago

> they can always buy a few automatic weapons at any gun store Actually, you can't, at least not in the US, and that's been true for decades. Thinking that you can is like thinking that you can buy a race car at the local dealer because you see similar looking cars with the same name on TV. > Take 2009..let's list all the terrorist attacks in the United States: The Fort Hood shooting, which killed 13 should be on that list. So much for "all".

jfager 17y ago
For the purpose of shooting up your local mall, the difference between a fully-automatic and semi-automatic AR-15 is not that great (it's not like you're going to be laying down suppressing fire), and you certainly can buy the latter without any real difficulty.
- shawndumas 17y ago
  "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -- The Dalai Lama, (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)
  - jfager 17y ago
    I guess I don't understand how that quote relates back to what I said. Are you saying that terrorists should be prepared to lay down suppressing fire, and thus shouldn't settle for the semi-auto weapons they can easily purchase at most fine sporting goods stores?
    - shawndumas 17y ago
      lol: No I was just thinking of someone trying to '[shoot] up [my] local mall' and as a licensed concealed carrier I remembered what the Dalai Lama said. Sorry. "Gun bans don't disarm criminals, gun bans attract them." -- Walter Mondale
      - fnid2 17y ago
        I wonder about the tragedy that can be caused with easy access to deadly force. If/When the proverbial shit hits the fan, if many people around you have guns, a single irrational one could cause a firestorm that kills you in the crossfire. If everyone isn't walking around with guns and a fight breaks out, you can run away. But you can't outrun bullets. This is why I am concerned about open carry laws or even concealed gun laws.
        shawndumas 17y ago
        "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." — Jefferson "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." — Charles A. Beard
        mturmon 17y ago
        Why these quotes? Is anything Thomas Jefferson, Walter Mondale, or the Dalai Lama said automatically true?
        jrockway 17y ago
        Because they were famous and their quotes were pithy. My question is, how come nobody ever gets shot in Japan? Guns are banned, there are criminals, but most murders are stabbings (or arson, etc.) If you listen to Jefferson, Japan would be a haven for dangerous gun-toting criminals shooting up anything and everything just to get some pocket change. But that is apparently not the case.
        shawndumas 17y ago
        Shootings in Japan [1] . [1] http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Shootings+in+Japan http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Shootings+in+Japan
- wmeredith 17y ago
  I think you and I have different definitions of real difficulty. It's expensive, time consuming and you have to go through a background check. Yes, its possible, but definitely difficult.
  - jfager 17y ago
    It depends on the state and the kind of gun you're buying. Purchasing a shotgun in Oklahoma, for instance, just requires a trip to Wal-Mart and $200 or so.
    - wmeredith 17y ago
      We were talking about silencers and automatic weapons, not shotguns.
- philwelch 17y ago
  For the purpose of shooting up your local mall, the difference between a semi-automatic AR-15 and a bolt-action hunting rifle is not that great, either. You'd get fewer bullets off but each individual impact would be worse (.30 caliber over .223) and if you aimed, and actually knew how to shoot, you'd probably do alright.
vaksel 17y ago
you don't need full automatic weapons...you can just buy a regular gun like an AR15 and kill just as many people. the fort hood incident isn't on the list of 2009 attacks. Here is the wiki discussion about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2009#Fort_Hood_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_terrorist_incident...
ErrantX 17y ago
> Actually, you can't, at least not in the US, and that's been true for decades. What about by illegal means? I believe that is relatively easy. Theft? And, also, non-automatic weapons are pretty easy to come by. Indeed a better way to put it would be that it is easy to obtain an automatic weapon with relatively little planning/effort.
- sophacles 17y ago
  Further plenty of semi-auto guns (ar-15, mini-14 are very popular for this) are easy to convert to full auto.
  - hga 17y ago
    Garbage; the ATF has made sure that easy conversion is not possible.
    - sophacles 17y ago
      Link? Last I checked anyone with reasonable mechanical knowledge and a bit of metal working skill could do it. May not be "caveman easy", but easy enough to someone who can read a simple set of diagrams. This simple set actually: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3853405/AR15-Lightning-Link-Plans http://www.scribd.com/doc/3853405/AR15-Lightning-Link-Plans Or, in a pinch, be good with a freaking paperclip.
      - hga 17y ago
        Try e.g. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-301570.html http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-301570.html, go down to the first comment with this time stamp: September 9, 2007, 02:52 PM Follow up WRT to the MAC-10, as that's the most prominent case where the ATF shut down production of open bolt versions for the "civilian" market (civilians can buy machine guns if made before 1986, there are about 100,000 of them in legal circulation).
      - anamax 17y ago
        The ATF's standard is roughly that it treats a gun as a machine gun (legal definition) if it can be made to fire automatically with about the same effort as making an automatic weapon given a barrel. Since it's fairly easy to make an automatic weapon given a barrel (the metal working isn't that difficult) .... Yes, there are lots of "plans" circulating, but that doesn't prove that they work. Selling bogus plans is the perfect crime because the buyer can't complain. FWIW, I've had a standing offer for years to anyone to demonstrate a conversion and have yet to have anyone even try. (I'll pay reasonable costs plus $5k AFTER the demo. Yes, you have to front your expenses - I'm not paying for failures or fraud.)
kgermino 17y ago
As he mentioned above the Federal Government does not consider the Fort Hood shooting a terrorist attack so it was left off the list.
- DrSprout 17y ago
  It wasn't. It was a US soldier attacking a US military base. Treason in time of war. Entirely different problem.
  - jp_sc 17y ago
    What war?
    - kgermino 17y ago
      I realize your trying to make a statement not a point but even if you don't believe that Iraq is a true war, and certainly even if you don't believe that we should be fighting in Iraq the Military is undoubtedly operating in a "war mode" right now: Troops are fighting overseas and the Military is preparing more troops to be transferred overseas to fight. That's what war operations are about, not declarations by Congress.
    - rosser 17y ago
      "We've always been at war with Eastasia."
  - anamax 17y ago
    > It was a US soldier attacking a US military base. Treason in time of war. Entirely different problem. His "mole" status doesn't change his cause or tactics.

by anamax 17y ago

jfager 17y ago

For the purpose of shooting up your local mall, the difference between a fully-automatic and semi-automatic AR-15 is not that great (it's not like you're going to be laying down suppressing fire), and you certainly can buy the latter without any real difficulty.

shawndumas 17y ago
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -- The Dalai Lama, (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)
- jfager 17y ago
  I guess I don't understand how that quote relates back to what I said. Are you saying that terrorists should be prepared to lay down suppressing fire, and thus shouldn't settle for the semi-auto weapons they can easily purchase at most fine sporting goods stores?
  - shawndumas 17y ago
    lol: No I was just thinking of someone trying to '[shoot] up [my] local mall' and as a licensed concealed carrier I remembered what the Dalai Lama said. Sorry. "Gun bans don't disarm criminals, gun bans attract them." -- Walter Mondale
    - fnid2 17y ago
      I wonder about the tragedy that can be caused with easy access to deadly force. If/When the proverbial shit hits the fan, if many people around you have guns, a single irrational one could cause a firestorm that kills you in the crossfire. If everyone isn't walking around with guns and a fight breaks out, you can run away. But you can't outrun bullets. This is why I am concerned about open carry laws or even concealed gun laws.
      - shawndumas 17y ago
        "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." — Jefferson "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." — Charles A. Beard
        mturmon 17y ago
        Why these quotes? Is anything Thomas Jefferson, Walter Mondale, or the Dalai Lama said automatically true?
        jrockway 17y ago
        Because they were famous and their quotes were pithy. My question is, how come nobody ever gets shot in Japan? Guns are banned, there are criminals, but most murders are stabbings (or arson, etc.) If you listen to Jefferson, Japan would be a haven for dangerous gun-toting criminals shooting up anything and everything just to get some pocket change. But that is apparently not the case.
        shawndumas 17y ago
        Shootings in Japan [1] . [1] http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Shootings+in+Japan http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Shootings+in+Japan
wmeredith 17y ago
I think you and I have different definitions of real difficulty. It's expensive, time consuming and you have to go through a background check. Yes, its possible, but definitely difficult.
- jfager 17y ago
  It depends on the state and the kind of gun you're buying. Purchasing a shotgun in Oklahoma, for instance, just requires a trip to Wal-Mart and $200 or so.
  - wmeredith 17y ago
    We were talking about silencers and automatic weapons, not shotguns.
philwelch 17y ago
For the purpose of shooting up your local mall, the difference between a semi-automatic AR-15 and a bolt-action hunting rifle is not that great, either. You'd get fewer bullets off but each individual impact would be worse (.30 caliber over .223) and if you aimed, and actually knew how to shoot, you'd probably do alright.

vaksel 17y ago

you don't need full automatic weapons...you can just buy a regular gun like an AR15 and kill just as many people. the fort hood incident isn't on the list of 2009 attacks. Here is the wiki discussion about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2009#Fort_Hood_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_terrorist_incident...

ErrantX 17y ago

> Actually, you can't, at least not in the US, and that's been true for decades. What about by illegal means? I believe that is relatively easy. Theft? And, also, non-automatic weapons are pretty easy to come by. Indeed a better way to put it would be that it is easy to obtain an automatic weapon with relatively little planning/effort.

sophacles 17y ago
Further plenty of semi-auto guns (ar-15, mini-14 are very popular for this) are easy to convert to full auto.
- hga 17y ago
  Garbage; the ATF has made sure that easy conversion is not possible.
  - sophacles 17y ago
    Link? Last I checked anyone with reasonable mechanical knowledge and a bit of metal working skill could do it. May not be "caveman easy", but easy enough to someone who can read a simple set of diagrams. This simple set actually: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3853405/AR15-Lightning-Link-Plans http://www.scribd.com/doc/3853405/AR15-Lightning-Link-Plans Or, in a pinch, be good with a freaking paperclip.
    - hga 17y ago
      Try e.g. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-301570.html http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-301570.html, go down to the first comment with this time stamp: September 9, 2007, 02:52 PM Follow up WRT to the MAC-10, as that's the most prominent case where the ATF shut down production of open bolt versions for the "civilian" market (civilians can buy machine guns if made before 1986, there are about 100,000 of them in legal circulation).
    - anamax 17y ago
      The ATF's standard is roughly that it treats a gun as a machine gun (legal definition) if it can be made to fire automatically with about the same effort as making an automatic weapon given a barrel. Since it's fairly easy to make an automatic weapon given a barrel (the metal working isn't that difficult) .... Yes, there are lots of "plans" circulating, but that doesn't prove that they work. Selling bogus plans is the perfect crime because the buyer can't complain. FWIW, I've had a standing offer for years to anyone to demonstrate a conversion and have yet to have anyone even try. (I'll pay reasonable costs plus $5k AFTER the demo. Yes, you have to front your expenses - I'm not paying for failures or fraud.)

kgermino 17y ago

As he mentioned above the Federal Government does not consider the Fort Hood shooting a terrorist attack so it was left off the list.

DrSprout 17y ago
It wasn't. It was a US soldier attacking a US military base. Treason in time of war. Entirely different problem.
- jp_sc 17y ago
  What war?
  - kgermino 17y ago
    I realize your trying to make a statement not a point but even if you don't believe that Iraq is a true war, and certainly even if you don't believe that we should be fighting in Iraq the Military is undoubtedly operating in a "war mode" right now: Troops are fighting overseas and the Military is preparing more troops to be transferred overseas to fight. That's what war operations are about, not declarations by Congress.
  - rosser 17y ago
    "We've always been at war with Eastasia."
- anamax 17y ago
  > It was a US soldier attacking a US military base. Treason in time of war. Entirely different problem. His "mole" status doesn't change his cause or tactics.