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Going back to my line, > archaeological & prophetic evidences Nothing that somehow moves away from 3: humans writing down their myths and beliefs. The bible t

by ozy 10y ago

Going back to my line, > archaeological & prophetic evidences Nothing that somehow moves away from 3: humans writing down their myths and beliefs. The bible talks about an exodus of 1 million jews from Egypt, zero evidence. The bible prophesied the destruction of Damascus, still here. The drying up of the Nile, didn't happen. The biblical reason for why Nineveh was destroyed is different from the archaeological reason. The one prophecy (Ezechiel) might be argued is Israel becoming a nation again in 1948. But it requires quite a bit of handwaving. The chance of something happening to Israel that fits some prophecy is high, by the amount and vagueness of those. > with over 6 billion copies So by your measure, the quran also has answers, it is number 2 book by far. > explain away the resurrection of Jesus Christ Humans writing down myths, a very simple explanation. I would suggest you read how one of the first martyr explains it to the Sanhedrin (Acts 7). But it is not about explanations. It is about knowledge. Many things might be true, but we will never be able to know those things. No body no crime. But also the positive version, no receipt no reimbursement. Nobody can disproof the resurrection. But nobody can proof it either. Therefor we cannot know.

milesf 10y ago
I don't understand your point about the death of Stephen (which I just happened to be reading in my devotional time this past week) in Acts 7. Could you elaborate? I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want. All I ask is they respect my right to believe whatever I want. I used to believe the Bible was a collection of myths as well. If you want to believe that, that's certainly your right. But I don't buy it. Not after reading the entire narrative, which IMHO currently is best done through the Read Scripture app for iPhone/Android (http://readscripture.org/ http://readscripture.org/). Not after I made an honest attempt to explain away the resurrection. So just to be clear, do you think Jesus Christ was a myth, or that His death and resurrection was a myth?
- ozy 10y ago
  How does Stephen proof that Jesus rose from the dead? And why does that evidence convince (or not) the Sanhedrin? Remember this is not long after it all happened and these are the same men who asked Pilatus for Jesus his execution. People are free to belief what they want. But people behave according to their beliefs. And sometimes when people think they know the truth, they feel justified in limiting other people their freedoms. More so if they think the creator of the universe agrees, and others are sinners. So I look for that "liberal" spark in believers. You clearly have it, and that number is growing, but many christians do not. Many others who belief in unknowable and invisible things are even worse. (Non religious people can also lack it.) As for what I believe: Was Jesus a real person existed, likely. Did he rise from the dead, no. Was his message misunderstood, yes. Part of Jesus his message was, it is not about what you do, but why you do it. It is about your heart. An eternity in heaven or hell are exactly the wrong motivation. I think Jesus meant humanity can go much further if we all follow the golden rule, and are less biased towards foreigners and outcasts. More grace more forgiveness, less judgement. When two or more people cooperate in that way, they can do more. That is the holy spirit, not some supernatural force. And that will bring the "kingdom of heaven" here on earth. It might not feel like it, but we are getting closer to that. How many lepers did god heal? 50 total? Science has healed 5 million. Only after our thinkers had the "liberal" spark, and were less bound by the dogma of religion, did we finally start to make strides into removing human suffering. People forget, but in the time of Jesus, over 50% of children died before they were 15. In the rich areas of this world, it is less then 0.2%, in our poorest countries, it is less then 10%.
  - milesf 10y ago
    I'm thoroughly confused by what you're saying, Ozy. I agree as well that Jesus of Nazareth existed, but the evidence I have examined and gone over and over many times points to a different Jesus than the one you're describing. Here's a summary of the evidence I'm talking about. Tell me what you think: http://www.josh.org/wp-content/uploads/Evidence-For-The-Resurrection.pdf http://www.josh.org/wp-content/uploads/Evidence-For-The-Resu...
    - ozy 10y ago
      > Here's a summary of the evidence I'm talking about. And that is our disagreement, my bar for evidence is a lot higher. Literally the doc itself says: "the resurrection of Jesus Christ is either one of the most wicked [..] hoaxes [..] or it is the most remarkable fact of history." If we had proof, it could be only one thing, not two things. And we can rule out one of the two, because we have no evidence of anything supernatural and no indication that people can come back from the dead. (If you can proof either, you can collect a million dollars at the JREF.) So we would need to go with option number one. And how unlikely is that option? I mean people have died for Marxism. Clearly Jesus his teachings were a good message that people thought was important, even at high personal cost. And willing to bend the truth for and exaggerate quite a bit. All very normal human behaviour. Back to Stephen. He did not even try to convince the Sanhedrin. He could have made is story legitimate with proof: remember when Jesus died and the temple veil was torn in half? Remember the sudden darkness? Remember the dead walking in the city? Remember that despite the Roman guards, the grave was empty? See how we can heal the sick and so could Jesus. But he doesn't, because it wouldn't convince the Sanhedrin, because it did not happen. When it comes to the supernatural, we have no grounding, we cannot evaluate the difference between people writing down myths, vs a god spreading misleading propaganda, vs a loving god that you wish to belief in. If belief gives you comfort and perspective in life, good, go for it. But in Saudi Arabia, people kill each other for not wearing headscarfs. And their proof for their beliefs is as good as yours. Namely ungrounded and still at 3: all explained by iron age people writing down their myths and beliefs. And even if there is a supernatural, the biblical descriptions of it are as accurate as when it describes the earth resting on pillars. Thanks you for the discussion. If you have any questions or think I was inaccurate, please let me know. If you have proof, please show me by winning the JREF price. Barring proof, I would suggest you read the bible but cut out anything supernatural. It is still a nice message. Plus just ceasing to exist when you die after having tried to live well is not so bad. Probably preferable to an eternity with a god who, by his own admission, has committed genocide and has no respect for human rights or humane treatment of prisoners.

by ozy 10y ago

milesf 10y ago

I don't understand your point about the death of Stephen (which I just happened to be reading in my devotional time this past week) in Acts 7. Could you elaborate? I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want. All I ask is they respect my right to believe whatever I want. I used to believe the Bible was a collection of myths as well. If you want to believe that, that's certainly your right. But I don't buy it. Not after reading the entire narrative, which IMHO currently is best done through the Read Scripture app for iPhone/Android (http://readscripture.org/ http://readscripture.org/). Not after I made an honest attempt to explain away the resurrection. So just to be clear, do you think Jesus Christ was a myth, or that His death and resurrection was a myth?

ozy 10y ago
How does Stephen proof that Jesus rose from the dead? And why does that evidence convince (or not) the Sanhedrin? Remember this is not long after it all happened and these are the same men who asked Pilatus for Jesus his execution. People are free to belief what they want. But people behave according to their beliefs. And sometimes when people think they know the truth, they feel justified in limiting other people their freedoms. More so if they think the creator of the universe agrees, and others are sinners. So I look for that "liberal" spark in believers. You clearly have it, and that number is growing, but many christians do not. Many others who belief in unknowable and invisible things are even worse. (Non religious people can also lack it.) As for what I believe: Was Jesus a real person existed, likely. Did he rise from the dead, no. Was his message misunderstood, yes. Part of Jesus his message was, it is not about what you do, but why you do it. It is about your heart. An eternity in heaven or hell are exactly the wrong motivation. I think Jesus meant humanity can go much further if we all follow the golden rule, and are less biased towards foreigners and outcasts. More grace more forgiveness, less judgement. When two or more people cooperate in that way, they can do more. That is the holy spirit, not some supernatural force. And that will bring the "kingdom of heaven" here on earth. It might not feel like it, but we are getting closer to that. How many lepers did god heal? 50 total? Science has healed 5 million. Only after our thinkers had the "liberal" spark, and were less bound by the dogma of religion, did we finally start to make strides into removing human suffering. People forget, but in the time of Jesus, over 50% of children died before they were 15. In the rich areas of this world, it is less then 0.2%, in our poorest countries, it is less then 10%.
- milesf 10y ago
  I'm thoroughly confused by what you're saying, Ozy. I agree as well that Jesus of Nazareth existed, but the evidence I have examined and gone over and over many times points to a different Jesus than the one you're describing. Here's a summary of the evidence I'm talking about. Tell me what you think: http://www.josh.org/wp-content/uploads/Evidence-For-The-Resurrection.pdf http://www.josh.org/wp-content/uploads/Evidence-For-The-Resu...
  - ozy 10y ago
    > Here's a summary of the evidence I'm talking about. And that is our disagreement, my bar for evidence is a lot higher. Literally the doc itself says: "the resurrection of Jesus Christ is either one of the most wicked [..] hoaxes [..] or it is the most remarkable fact of history." If we had proof, it could be only one thing, not two things. And we can rule out one of the two, because we have no evidence of anything supernatural and no indication that people can come back from the dead. (If you can proof either, you can collect a million dollars at the JREF.) So we would need to go with option number one. And how unlikely is that option? I mean people have died for Marxism. Clearly Jesus his teachings were a good message that people thought was important, even at high personal cost. And willing to bend the truth for and exaggerate quite a bit. All very normal human behaviour. Back to Stephen. He did not even try to convince the Sanhedrin. He could have made is story legitimate with proof: remember when Jesus died and the temple veil was torn in half? Remember the sudden darkness? Remember the dead walking in the city? Remember that despite the Roman guards, the grave was empty? See how we can heal the sick and so could Jesus. But he doesn't, because it wouldn't convince the Sanhedrin, because it did not happen. When it comes to the supernatural, we have no grounding, we cannot evaluate the difference between people writing down myths, vs a god spreading misleading propaganda, vs a loving god that you wish to belief in. If belief gives you comfort and perspective in life, good, go for it. But in Saudi Arabia, people kill each other for not wearing headscarfs. And their proof for their beliefs is as good as yours. Namely ungrounded and still at 3: all explained by iron age people writing down their myths and beliefs. And even if there is a supernatural, the biblical descriptions of it are as accurate as when it describes the earth resting on pillars. Thanks you for the discussion. If you have any questions or think I was inaccurate, please let me know. If you have proof, please show me by winning the JREF price. Barring proof, I would suggest you read the bible but cut out anything supernatural. It is still a nice message. Plus just ceasing to exist when you die after having tried to live well is not so bad. Probably preferable to an eternity with a god who, by his own admission, has committed genocide and has no respect for human rights or humane treatment of prisoners.