4 ms·

> How is an executive supposed to decide what I should work on next if I don't provide estimates of the things that I could work on? I dunno. Maybe ask an exe

> How is an executive supposed to decide what I should work on next if I don't provide estimates of the things that I could work on? I dunno. Maybe ask an executive at one of the many companies that have scientists or mathematicians on staff how they do it.

mwcampbell 10y ago
Those folks are probably working in a research lab, though, not in product development. And few companies these days have that luxury. My father has been an engineer (not in software) for decades. I haven't asked him about this yet, but I'm guessing he has to provide estimates for his projects.
- dudul 10y ago
  There is a very big difference between a software "engineer" and a real engineer. I personally think that picking the word "engineer" to describe our profession does us more harm than good.
  - mwcampbell 10y ago
    There is indeed a difference, but I don't think it makes us software developers look very good. Shouldn't we at least aspire to the same level of professionalism and quality that good engineers have achieved?
    - dudul 10y ago
      > Shouldn't we at least aspire to the same level of professionalism and quality that good engineers have achieved? My point was that we cannot really, because we are not engineers. Nothing in what we do is even close to what civil engineers do for example. Neither our tools, nor our workflows, or our constraints, really nothing. I think the day we decided to call ourselves "engineers" we made a mistake, that's it.
    - pkolaczk 10y ago
      My father is a mechanical engineer and he says the amount of problems in the designs he reviews is very high, contrary to popular beliefs. There are often multiple rounds required to clean things up and some problems are discovered at build time. Buildings and bridges are not falling down because they are much less complex and more similar to each other than software projects.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
marcus_holmes 10y ago
well, in the places that employ artists (same problem, different field), management tend to tell the creatives how long they've got to get it done. But it's a lot easier for a manager to conceptualise how long a piece of art will take to do than a piece of code.
- parenthephobia 10y ago
  I dispute that it's the same problem. Graphic art-ing is quite different to programming. One significant difference is that you can just look at a drawing and know if it's okay or not. There's no test suite for graphic art. Drawing outside the lines is a stylistic choice. Compiler errors are not. The stuff a graphic artist will be fastest at, and for which estimating will be easiest, is stuff they've done thousands of times before. Most programmers aren't writing code they've written thousands of times before, unless they're not paying attention. Out of the creative arts field, I think programming is probably most like creative writing. The grander the program, the grander the equivalent narrative. Unlike a picture, you can't just look at a book and know if it's written properly, you have to read it through. Not only do you have to worry about grammar, you also have to be concerned that the narrative is internally consistent, and that it features the themes, characters, and dramatic situations specified in the brief. Of course, the analogy still isn't exact. A novel doesn't actually have to be internally consistent, and the book doesn't crash if there are spelling mistakes. In fact, many novels written without taking spending the time and money to edit it properly will have plot holes or grammatical errors. A reader can fuzz past it, but a computer can't. Ask a writer how long it will take to write a novel that is totally internally consistent, leaves no plot threads unresolved, and has no grammatical errors. They'll tell you it can't be done to schedule.
  - marcus_holmes 10y ago
    Think portrait painter or graphic artist. They have very specific briefs, and a set time to complete them in. But yes, creative writing works as well. And creative writers are given deadlines.
  - CJefferson 10y ago

mwcampbell 10y ago

Those folks are probably working in a research lab, though, not in product development. And few companies these days have that luxury. My father has been an engineer (not in software) for decades. I haven't asked him about this yet, but I'm guessing he has to provide estimates for his projects.

dudul 10y ago
There is a very big difference between a software "engineer" and a real engineer. I personally think that picking the word "engineer" to describe our profession does us more harm than good.
- mwcampbell 10y ago
  There is indeed a difference, but I don't think it makes us software developers look very good. Shouldn't we at least aspire to the same level of professionalism and quality that good engineers have achieved?
  - dudul 10y ago
    > Shouldn't we at least aspire to the same level of professionalism and quality that good engineers have achieved? My point was that we cannot really, because we are not engineers. Nothing in what we do is even close to what civil engineers do for example. Neither our tools, nor our workflows, or our constraints, really nothing. I think the day we decided to call ourselves "engineers" we made a mistake, that's it.
  - pkolaczk 10y ago
    My father is a mechanical engineer and he says the amount of problems in the designs he reviews is very high, contrary to popular beliefs. There are often multiple rounds required to clean things up and some problems are discovered at build time. Buildings and bridges are not falling down because they are much less complex and more similar to each other than software projects.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

marcus_holmes 10y ago

well, in the places that employ artists (same problem, different field), management tend to tell the creatives how long they've got to get it done. But it's a lot easier for a manager to conceptualise how long a piece of art will take to do than a piece of code.

parenthephobia 10y ago
I dispute that it's the same problem. Graphic art-ing is quite different to programming. One significant difference is that you can just look at a drawing and know if it's okay or not. There's no test suite for graphic art. Drawing outside the lines is a stylistic choice. Compiler errors are not. The stuff a graphic artist will be fastest at, and for which estimating will be easiest, is stuff they've done thousands of times before. Most programmers aren't writing code they've written thousands of times before, unless they're not paying attention. Out of the creative arts field, I think programming is probably most like creative writing. The grander the program, the grander the equivalent narrative. Unlike a picture, you can't just look at a book and know if it's written properly, you have to read it through. Not only do you have to worry about grammar, you also have to be concerned that the narrative is internally consistent, and that it features the themes, characters, and dramatic situations specified in the brief. Of course, the analogy still isn't exact. A novel doesn't actually have to be internally consistent, and the book doesn't crash if there are spelling mistakes. In fact, many novels written without taking spending the time and money to edit it properly will have plot holes or grammatical errors. A reader can fuzz past it, but a computer can't. Ask a writer how long it will take to write a novel that is totally internally consistent, leaves no plot threads unresolved, and has no grammatical errors. They'll tell you it can't be done to schedule.
- marcus_holmes 10y ago
  Think portrait painter or graphic artist. They have very specific briefs, and a set time to complete them in. But yes, creative writing works as well. And creative writers are given deadlines.
- CJefferson 10y ago