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I always found those 2+1 roads stressful, as it required unpleasant delays behind very slow vehicles and puts a limit on how many cars can overtake before the o

I always found those 2+1 roads stressful, as it required unpleasant delays behind very slow vehicles and puts a limit on how many cars can overtake before the other side gets the middle lane. Is this the price for saving lives, or do I misunderstand anything? Does the 2+1 road replace 1+1 roads (which is probably a lot more dangerous)?

RyanZAG 10y ago
In Cairo, most of the roads during rush hour are so packed with cars that you can't drive faster than 5km/hour. Those packed roads with slowly moving cars have the lowest accident rate in the country. So yes, you can definitely reduce accidents by forcing everyone into high traffic situations where they have no choice but to drive extremely slowly. In IT security, you can also reduce hacked computers by making so many security regulations that nobody can actually use the computers. It does work, but nobody really gets their job done. Or at least, in the case of the state department, it works until your secretary of state moves all of her email onto her own server to avoid your regulations and you end up with a political firestorm. At some point you probably want to try find solutions that optimize safety and actually getting something done at the same time. Creating traffic isn't a very good solution in the long run, I think.
- majewsky 10y ago
  > Those packed roads with slowly moving cars have the lowest accident rate in the country. Well, they have about the same accident rate as walking, and walking is even faster! > In IT security, you can also reduce hacked computers by making so many security regulations that nobody can actually use the computers. It does work, but nobody really gets their job done. On the contrary, imposing ridiculous restrictions will cause users to become very creative in bypassing them, thus negating any positive effect they might have.
  - RyanZAG 10y ago
    Right, that was my point in the following two lines.
geon 10y ago
The 2+1 roads mostly used to be 1+1 with no middle barrier, I believe. If you wanted to overtake a slower car, you had to time it well so you could use the opposite lane while it was (hopefully) empty of oncoming traffic. Or you'd hope the car in front, and the oncoming one were polite enough to move over to the curb. Some more winding roads had bad visibility, so you could never pass safely. I take the 2+1 any day. The newer 2+1 roads have cable barriers in the middle, so even a drunk or sleeping oncoming driver won't kill you. They just total their own car. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_barrier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_barrier Source: Being Swedish.
- kpil 10y ago
  The barriers slice motorcyclists though...
alkonaut 10y ago
Yes. It's a cheap upgrade using the existing width of a wide (43ft/13m and up) 1+1 road with wide shoulder and wide lanes to make a 2+1 with narrow shoulder and a wire barrier on the same width. Sweden was just lucky to have built such wide 1+1 roads as the norm, so a large part of the major highways were (realatively) easily and cheaply convertible. The safety difference from 1+1 is huge, and the cost of conversion is negligible compared to a rebuild into a real 2+2 road.

RyanZAG 10y ago

In Cairo, most of the roads during rush hour are so packed with cars that you can't drive faster than 5km/hour. Those packed roads with slowly moving cars have the lowest accident rate in the country. So yes, you can definitely reduce accidents by forcing everyone into high traffic situations where they have no choice but to drive extremely slowly. In IT security, you can also reduce hacked computers by making so many security regulations that nobody can actually use the computers. It does work, but nobody really gets their job done. Or at least, in the case of the state department, it works until your secretary of state moves all of her email onto her own server to avoid your regulations and you end up with a political firestorm. At some point you probably want to try find solutions that optimize safety and actually getting something done at the same time. Creating traffic isn't a very good solution in the long run, I think.

majewsky 10y ago
> Those packed roads with slowly moving cars have the lowest accident rate in the country. Well, they have about the same accident rate as walking, and walking is even faster! > In IT security, you can also reduce hacked computers by making so many security regulations that nobody can actually use the computers. It does work, but nobody really gets their job done. On the contrary, imposing ridiculous restrictions will cause users to become very creative in bypassing them, thus negating any positive effect they might have.
- RyanZAG 10y ago
  Right, that was my point in the following two lines.

geon 10y ago

The 2+1 roads mostly used to be 1+1 with no middle barrier, I believe. If you wanted to overtake a slower car, you had to time it well so you could use the opposite lane while it was (hopefully) empty of oncoming traffic. Or you'd hope the car in front, and the oncoming one were polite enough to move over to the curb. Some more winding roads had bad visibility, so you could never pass safely. I take the 2+1 any day. The newer 2+1 roads have cable barriers in the middle, so even a drunk or sleeping oncoming driver won't kill you. They just total their own car. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_barrier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_barrier Source: Being Swedish.

kpil 10y ago
The barriers slice motorcyclists though...

alkonaut 10y ago

Yes. It's a cheap upgrade using the existing width of a wide (43ft/13m and up) 1+1 road with wide shoulder and wide lanes to make a 2+1 with narrow shoulder and a wire barrier on the same width. Sweden was just lucky to have built such wide 1+1 roads as the norm, so a large part of the major highways were (realatively) easily and cheaply convertible. The safety difference from 1+1 is huge, and the cost of conversion is negligible compared to a rebuild into a real 2+2 road.