4 ms·

I dismissed your comment before reading the article, but you are kind of right. The biggest thing holding back people on disability from finding work (according

by soared 10y ago

I dismissed your comment before reading the article, but you are kind of right. The biggest thing holding back people on disability from finding work (according to the article) is fear of losing health insurance and that cushion. It sounds like allowing people to keep disability benefits, at least for a couple months, after finding employment would help significantly. This sounds like you could get two paychecks for a while and potentially better for abusing, but remember the bottom line: >Economists believe declining job prospects and an aging workforce, not fraud, explain the growth of disability claims.

tyingq 10y ago
>>Economists believe declining job prospects and an aging workforce, not fraud, explain the growth of disability claims. That's an odd quote though. How would "declining job prospects" explain growth in disability without also implying fraud? Edit: Both explanations below make sense, but 15 to 20+ percent of "all residents age 18 to 64" within a single county on disability benefits? I don't see how that could not imply fraud, perhaps with the exception of a mining heavy county.
- jjoonathan 10y ago
  Desperate people are more willing to put up with unsafe or abusive conditions that could lead to disablement.
- venomsnake 10y ago
  You can be disabled and power trough a workday. Also in disability evaluation is local work. If you can't do the work found locally also helps. The current opioid epidemic started from Appalachian miners that powered trough back pain to work IIRC. The jobs ended, the pain and addiction remained. Throw hopelessness in the mix and it is not hard to see how a medical condition could turn into social one.
- droopyEyelids 10y ago
  Did you read the article? It specifically covers this question. People who are in some sort of pain can still do work if they can find a job that doesn't aggrivate their pain. One example from the article was a woman who had a bad back, but could work a desk job like at a call center. Whent the prospects of that sort of job disappear from their geographical area, the person becomes eligible for disability.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    >Did you read the article. I did. That's one anectodal example. They also say "Recipients are often hesitant to look for full-time employment because they don’t want to risk losing the financial cushion and access to health care that disability insurance provides".
    - Spooky23 10y ago
      The reason is that the process for getting SSDI is a nightmare. It takes months or years and often requires a judgement by a law judge. In the meantime, you're screwed. You can't work, have no money and end up in debt. If you don't have kids, you're a low priority for subsidized housing and if you lack relatives who can help, you're in a bad place.
      - tyingq 10y ago
        This makes sense. The crop of "disability lawyers" is somewhat depressing. I wonder how much of your benefits they take in exchange for their services. I assume it's a big number, as they all advertise doing it on contingency..."you don't pay unless we get you approved". Edit: Looked it up. It does get paid out of your benefits, and it can be a substantial amount. "The fee specified in the agreement does not exceed the lesser of 25 percent of the past-due benefits or...$6000" https://www.ssa.gov/representation/fee_agreements.htm https://www.ssa.gov/representation/fee_agreements.htm
        Spooky23 10y ago
        IIRC, the government pays them a fixed fee for their services. That's why they advertise in daytime TV -- case volume is the only way to make money.
- jlarocco 10y ago
  The upper limit of $1130 on a person's income makes it difficult to tell for sure. It could be that 30% of people everywhere can legitimately qualify as "disabled" using their criteria, but most people won't apply because they already make too much money. If the jobs start moving away or disappearing, then the alternative is to sign up for disability.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  The definition of "disabled" doesn't match yours.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
zaroth 10y ago
You keep your benefits for 9 months after starting substantial gainful activity (earning more than $1,170 / month). And yes that means for 9 months you do get to double dip. There are also trial work periods which you can "fail" out of and not lose your benefits. It's hard to walk away from a guaranteed monthly payment for life (when SSDI stops regular social security kicks in). But just looking at the monthly check misses the forest for the trees. Keep in mind that the act of working a job is actually very expensive. Having those 50+ hours back and not having to be out of the house performing labor for some 3rd party is generally worth much more than the actual monthly payments. To put it another way, if you can stay home and live anywhere you want (no commute) your cost of living can easily drop below $15k / year. Whereas working full time your cost of living may be double, triple, or more. Once you get on SSDI, even a job paying $60k/yr or more might not be economically superior. Oh, then throw in that you're paying almost no taxes, you qualify for all kinds of other subsidies and rebates... then there's the bit about free healthcare. Add it up and even a $70k-$80k job might be economically inferior.
- gregshap 10y ago
  I agree in principle, but 70-80k is quite a stretch.
  - zaroth 10y ago
    First, it matters a lot how you define "an $80k / year job". If you are talking about the gross payroll, taxes and benefits (PT&B) cost to the employer, it's a lot different than $80k "net take-home". I mean the former. Call that $50k take-home. Second, it matters if you are an adult disabled with a family being paid children benefits. Children and spousal benefits can boost total SSDI income up to 80%. Third, it matters how sick you are. Employee health plans will often have large deductibles and even higher annual out-of-pocket maximums. Medicaid has neither. The poor man insurance could save you over $20k per year. Fourth, it matters how handy you are and therefore how much you can make of that extra 50 hours per week you get by being on SSDI. If you can repair your house, repair your car, cook all your own meals, and never have to hire a contractor for anything, that can save a LOT of money. Maybe on SSDI you don't need a car at all. Maybe on SSDI you never have to call the car mechanic, the plumber, the handyman, or the housecleaner, etc. Most particularly, maybe on SSDI you don't have to pay for childcare. The direct, indirect, and opportunity costs of working could easily exceed $20k. In review, let's say your $50k take home job results in $10k increase in healthcare costs, and also a $10k increase in other total household expenses; increased auto expense, food cost, restaurant bills, mechanics, handymen, and most of all, childcare. So you are working your ass off for $30k of income, where-as staying at home with SSDI would have paid you and your children $30k per year.

by soared 10y ago

tyingq 10y ago

>>Economists believe declining job prospects and an aging workforce, not fraud, explain the growth of disability claims. That's an odd quote though. How would "declining job prospects" explain growth in disability without also implying fraud? Edit: Both explanations below make sense, but 15 to 20+ percent of "all residents age 18 to 64" within a single county on disability benefits? I don't see how that could not imply fraud, perhaps with the exception of a mining heavy county.

jjoonathan 10y ago
Desperate people are more willing to put up with unsafe or abusive conditions that could lead to disablement.
venomsnake 10y ago
You can be disabled and power trough a workday. Also in disability evaluation is local work. If you can't do the work found locally also helps. The current opioid epidemic started from Appalachian miners that powered trough back pain to work IIRC. The jobs ended, the pain and addiction remained. Throw hopelessness in the mix and it is not hard to see how a medical condition could turn into social one.
droopyEyelids 10y ago
Did you read the article? It specifically covers this question. People who are in some sort of pain can still do work if they can find a job that doesn't aggrivate their pain. One example from the article was a woman who had a bad back, but could work a desk job like at a call center. Whent the prospects of that sort of job disappear from their geographical area, the person becomes eligible for disability.
- tyingq 10y ago
  >Did you read the article. I did. That's one anectodal example. They also say "Recipients are often hesitant to look for full-time employment because they don’t want to risk losing the financial cushion and access to health care that disability insurance provides".
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    The reason is that the process for getting SSDI is a nightmare. It takes months or years and often requires a judgement by a law judge. In the meantime, you're screwed. You can't work, have no money and end up in debt. If you don't have kids, you're a low priority for subsidized housing and if you lack relatives who can help, you're in a bad place.
    - tyingq 10y ago
      This makes sense. The crop of "disability lawyers" is somewhat depressing. I wonder how much of your benefits they take in exchange for their services. I assume it's a big number, as they all advertise doing it on contingency..."you don't pay unless we get you approved". Edit: Looked it up. It does get paid out of your benefits, and it can be a substantial amount. "The fee specified in the agreement does not exceed the lesser of 25 percent of the past-due benefits or...$6000" https://www.ssa.gov/representation/fee_agreements.htm https://www.ssa.gov/representation/fee_agreements.htm
      - Spooky23 10y ago
        IIRC, the government pays them a fixed fee for their services. That's why they advertise in daytime TV -- case volume is the only way to make money.
jlarocco 10y ago
The upper limit of $1130 on a person's income makes it difficult to tell for sure. It could be that 30% of people everywhere can legitimately qualify as "disabled" using their criteria, but most people won't apply because they already make too much money. If the jobs start moving away or disappearing, then the alternative is to sign up for disability.
Spooky23 10y ago
The definition of "disabled" doesn't match yours.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

zaroth 10y ago

You keep your benefits for 9 months after starting substantial gainful activity (earning more than $1,170 / month). And yes that means for 9 months you do get to double dip. There are also trial work periods which you can "fail" out of and not lose your benefits. It's hard to walk away from a guaranteed monthly payment for life (when SSDI stops regular social security kicks in). But just looking at the monthly check misses the forest for the trees. Keep in mind that the act of working a job is actually very expensive. Having those 50+ hours back and not having to be out of the house performing labor for some 3rd party is generally worth much more than the actual monthly payments. To put it another way, if you can stay home and live anywhere you want (no commute) your cost of living can easily drop below $15k / year. Whereas working full time your cost of living may be double, triple, or more. Once you get on SSDI, even a job paying $60k/yr or more might not be economically superior. Oh, then throw in that you're paying almost no taxes, you qualify for all kinds of other subsidies and rebates... then there's the bit about free healthcare. Add it up and even a $70k-$80k job might be economically inferior.

gregshap 10y ago
I agree in principle, but 70-80k is quite a stretch.
- zaroth 10y ago
  First, it matters a lot how you define "an $80k / year job". If you are talking about the gross payroll, taxes and benefits (PT&B) cost to the employer, it's a lot different than $80k "net take-home". I mean the former. Call that $50k take-home. Second, it matters if you are an adult disabled with a family being paid children benefits. Children and spousal benefits can boost total SSDI income up to 80%. Third, it matters how sick you are. Employee health plans will often have large deductibles and even higher annual out-of-pocket maximums. Medicaid has neither. The poor man insurance could save you over $20k per year. Fourth, it matters how handy you are and therefore how much you can make of that extra 50 hours per week you get by being on SSDI. If you can repair your house, repair your car, cook all your own meals, and never have to hire a contractor for anything, that can save a LOT of money. Maybe on SSDI you don't need a car at all. Maybe on SSDI you never have to call the car mechanic, the plumber, the handyman, or the housecleaner, etc. Most particularly, maybe on SSDI you don't have to pay for childcare. The direct, indirect, and opportunity costs of working could easily exceed $20k. In review, let's say your $50k take home job results in $10k increase in healthcare costs, and also a $10k increase in other total household expenses; increased auto expense, food cost, restaurant bills, mechanics, handymen, and most of all, childcare. So you are working your ass off for $30k of income, where-as staying at home with SSDI would have paid you and your children $30k per year.