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I think Levy's take on hacker ethic was a bit phony to begin with, typical of journalists who try to describe the spirit of something without practicing it. All

I think Levy's take on hacker ethic was a bit phony to begin with, typical of journalists who try to describe the spirit of something without practicing it. All information should be free, really? Like your root password? I much prefer the version in the Jargon File: "A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary." Basically a hacker is someone who enjoys hacking for its own sake, not as part of some moral crusade. The OP is proposing another moral crusade which is just as irrelevant. Whether you like it or not, most discoveries will be made by those who enjoy discovery, not by those who view it as a means to reach utopia.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
>All information should be free, really? Like your root password? No, that sounds right. Didn't you hear about RMS's famous anti-password crusade when passwords were added to ITS? Also, ITS had no root, or even permissions: you could log in as any user and do anything. Except browse the directory where the ZORK sources were kept, after Blank et al. hacked in permissions for that directory (and even then, some DEC engineers patched the system to subvert it and grabbed a copy of the source, translating it to FORTRAN, and giving us DUNGEON. The Zork developers figured that if they went to that much effort, they deserved the source.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- cousin_it 10y ago
  Fair enough. Though even RMS argues today that real names and personal data of online users shouldn't be accessible to everyone.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    I imagine that's a bit different. The ability to bend the system to your will, make the choices you need to make, and have it behave as you desire, regardless of what the people who were at the keyboard before you think, is empowering, and conducive to hacking. Having all personal data available to anyone in a mass database... not so much.
demonshalo 10y ago
> Whether you like it or not, most discoveries will be made by those who enjoy discovery, not by those who view it as a means to reach utopia. I like this. A lot!
- qb45 10y ago
  Somewhat related: all things that have already been discovered will be subverted to reach utopia because those who enjoy discovery don't enjoy them anymore while utopia is a Big Thing™ which will be delivered Any Time Soon Now™, this time for sure, so it needs all resources it can use. And the OP likes this a lot :)
fornever 10y ago
> All information should be free, really? Like your root password? A password isn't information, especially in this context, it's data. How the login or encryption system works is information. Of all the misconceptions about hackers this is one of the weirdest to criticize. From the introduction of computers until the mass adaptation of the Internet, access to information was the largest issue in hacker culture. From BBSes to hacking groups and computer clubs, it was all about access. > Basically a hacker is someone who enjoys hacking for its own sake Not only isn't that what your quote says, it's essentially just the definition of an enthusiast. Hackers are, even in the most watered down definitions, something different. Doing something for fun is part of hacker culture, but it's not the purpose of it. It's things like curiosity, exploration, exchange of ideas etc. > Whether you like it or not, most discoveries will be made by those who enjoy discovery, not as part of some moral crusade. Rarely. Discoveries (at least "common" ones) tend to be made by people who see a future other people don't. One could argue that people like Elon Musk is very much on a moral crusade and that his motivations are utopic. I don't really care who calls themselves or things "hacker" these days. But if you don't recognize that hacker culture, or the future of technology in general, is something more you're missing out.
- duaneb 10y ago
  While I get your point, I don't think data is clearly not information, it's just that the whole point of passwords is to be secret.
  - zanny 10y ago
    Information and data are entirely about the intent of them. The same number can mean a movie file or a math equation in different interpretations, yet still have the same physical representation. The difference between passwords, DRM, and proprietary software is then intent. They all serve the same function - secrecy - but for different purposes. The secret password is meant to provide security to the holder in regards to the information they hold. Proprietary software and DRM are meant to provide secrecy to the rights holder in regards to software other people hold.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Lagged2Death 10y ago
The OP is proposing another moral crusade which is just as irrelevant. "Have some thought about the people your decisions effect" is a moral crusade?
- qb45 10y ago
  I think it is, considering that hackers traditionally tended to value hacking above certain other mundane, authority-governed pursuits, as noted by the OP, and now she wants them to care.
  - GavinMcG 10y ago
    It does seem that the author thinks there's a moral component to the subject. But you may want to dig into the word "crusade" a bit more. It's over the top here.
chubot 10y ago
Richard Stallman actually had that viewpoint toward passwords: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman Stallman found a way to decrypt the passwords and sent users messages containing their decoded password, with a suggestion to change it to the empty string (that is, no password) instead, to re-enable anonymous access to the systems. Around 20% of the users followed his advice at the time, although passwords ultimately prevailed. Stallman boasted of the success of his campaign for many years afterward.[17]
- digi_owl 10y ago
  I seem to recall that his account on the FSF ftp is still blank.
erikpukinskis 10y ago
> most discoveries will be made by those who enjoy discovery, not by those who view it as a means to reach utopia. This contradicts the common adage "necessity is the mother of invention". I am building software every day to try to solve problems in my neighborhood... you seem to be saying people like me rarely invent anything, but coders who just do projects on the weekend for fun do. Why?

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

>All information should be free, really? Like your root password? No, that sounds right. Didn't you hear about RMS's famous anti-password crusade when passwords were added to ITS? Also, ITS had no root, or even permissions: you could log in as any user and do anything. Except browse the directory where the ZORK sources were kept, after Blank et al. hacked in permissions for that directory (and even then, some DEC engineers patched the system to subvert it and grabbed a copy of the source, translating it to FORTRAN, and giving us DUNGEON. The Zork developers figured that if they went to that much effort, they deserved the source.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
cousin_it 10y ago
Fair enough. Though even RMS argues today that real names and personal data of online users shouldn't be accessible to everyone.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  I imagine that's a bit different. The ability to bend the system to your will, make the choices you need to make, and have it behave as you desire, regardless of what the people who were at the keyboard before you think, is empowering, and conducive to hacking. Having all personal data available to anyone in a mass database... not so much.

demonshalo 10y ago

> Whether you like it or not, most discoveries will be made by those who enjoy discovery, not by those who view it as a means to reach utopia. I like this. A lot!

qb45 10y ago
Somewhat related: all things that have already been discovered will be subverted to reach utopia because those who enjoy discovery don't enjoy them anymore while utopia is a Big Thing™ which will be delivered Any Time Soon Now™, this time for sure, so it needs all resources it can use. And the OP likes this a lot :)

fornever 10y ago

> All information should be free, really? Like your root password? A password isn't information, especially in this context, it's data. How the login or encryption system works is information. Of all the misconceptions about hackers this is one of the weirdest to criticize. From the introduction of computers until the mass adaptation of the Internet, access to information was the largest issue in hacker culture. From BBSes to hacking groups and computer clubs, it was all about access. > Basically a hacker is someone who enjoys hacking for its own sake Not only isn't that what your quote says, it's essentially just the definition of an enthusiast. Hackers are, even in the most watered down definitions, something different. Doing something for fun is part of hacker culture, but it's not the purpose of it. It's things like curiosity, exploration, exchange of ideas etc. > Whether you like it or not, most discoveries will be made by those who enjoy discovery, not as part of some moral crusade. Rarely. Discoveries (at least "common" ones) tend to be made by people who see a future other people don't. One could argue that people like Elon Musk is very much on a moral crusade and that his motivations are utopic. I don't really care who calls themselves or things "hacker" these days. But if you don't recognize that hacker culture, or the future of technology in general, is something more you're missing out.

duaneb 10y ago
While I get your point, I don't think data is clearly not information, it's just that the whole point of passwords is to be secret.
- zanny 10y ago
  Information and data are entirely about the intent of them. The same number can mean a movie file or a math equation in different interpretations, yet still have the same physical representation. The difference between passwords, DRM, and proprietary software is then intent. They all serve the same function - secrecy - but for different purposes. The secret password is meant to provide security to the holder in regards to the information they hold. Proprietary software and DRM are meant to provide secrecy to the rights holder in regards to software other people hold.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Lagged2Death 10y ago

The OP is proposing another moral crusade which is just as irrelevant. "Have some thought about the people your decisions effect" is a moral crusade?

qb45 10y ago
I think it is, considering that hackers traditionally tended to value hacking above certain other mundane, authority-governed pursuits, as noted by the OP, and now she wants them to care.
- GavinMcG 10y ago
  It does seem that the author thinks there's a moral component to the subject. But you may want to dig into the word "crusade" a bit more. It's over the top here.

chubot 10y ago

Richard Stallman actually had that viewpoint toward passwords: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman Stallman found a way to decrypt the passwords and sent users messages containing their decoded password, with a suggestion to change it to the empty string (that is, no password) instead, to re-enable anonymous access to the systems. Around 20% of the users followed his advice at the time, although passwords ultimately prevailed. Stallman boasted of the success of his campaign for many years afterward.[17]

digi_owl 10y ago
I seem to recall that his account on the FSF ftp is still blank.

erikpukinskis 10y ago

> most discoveries will be made by those who enjoy discovery, not by those who view it as a means to reach utopia. This contradicts the common adage "necessity is the mother of invention". I am building software every day to try to solve problems in my neighborhood... you seem to be saying people like me rarely invent anything, but coders who just do projects on the weekend for fun do. Why?