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I grew up in what is generally considered an extremely successful socialist society; Denmark. All media is fully or partially state sponsored, a third of the a

by flexie 10y ago

I grew up in what is generally considered an extremely successful socialist society; Denmark. All media is fully or partially state sponsored, a third of the adult population is on some kind of welfare (incl public pension or student grants), a third of the adult population work for the government, and only a third of the adult population work in private companies, many of which derive all or a big part of their income from the domestic or foreign public sector (pharmaceuticals, clean energy, etc). Direct and indirect taxes take huge part of income. If you wanna buy a car, taxes are roughly 180 percent plus 25 percent VAT (also VAT on the tax). Those taxes you pay with income that has already been taxed 40-60 percent. Almost all education, health care, energy, mass transportation is public. I left the country, but not because of the political or economic system. Quality of life in Denmark is very high and I think most Danes like the socialism of Denmark. Other Scandinavian countries are similar and also with very high quality of life. Most European countries are to some degree also quite socialist and life there is generally good. So I think it's safe to say that socialism can work.

_andromeda_ 10y ago
Scandinavian countries also happen to feature prominently in the list of the most expensive countries to live in and I don't think that in the long run it is sustainable - just ask the Greeks. Someone has to pay dearly for all these extravagant social programs. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/21/map-expensive-countries_n_6510018.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/21/map-expensive-count...
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  > Someone has to pay Yes, and in Scandinavia we do. In Greece they didn't, hence the problem.
Steeeve 10y ago
I'm curious about this, because I have an entirely different perspective. I know nothing about Denmark, but I have seen that Sweden's student debt is on-par or higher than student debt in the U.S. despite free tuition. But earning potential in Sweden is much lower. How is class mobility in scandinavian states? Can you work your way up from the dregs of society to the top levels? If I want my kids to go to a great school like Stanford or Harvard, can I reasonably expect to be able to find a way to cover tuition as a member of the middle class? If I'm looking for a job in the $200k US range, what are my potential career options? What kind of housing can I expect to find if I'm a sole earner as a software engineer with a family of 6?
- flexie 10y ago
  Universities are not so divided into good and bad ones. Almost nobody think that way. Social mobility is higher than in the US but the highs are lower. Almost nobody makes $200k in Denmark, and fewer make it year after year. Even lawyers, dentists, medical doctors usually make less. But you also don't really need it. Public services such as schools, universities and hospitals are great. You wouldn't be able to live anywhere near Copenhagen if you are on a developer's salary and you need space for 4 kids. Most women in Denmark work. It's not a place designed for one income.
  - Steeeve 10y ago
    Very interesting, thank you. > Speaking at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, Danish PM Lars Løkke Rasmussen told students that he had “absolutely no wish to interfere the presidential debate in the US” but nonetheless attempted to set the record straight about his country. > "I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,” Rasmussen said. > “The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,” he added. I just found this quote from the Danish PM. What I find interesting about it is that it indicates the kind of distrust of socialism that I grew up with. I don't feel that social programs are bad, but socialism as a political goal is particularly disturbing. Based on history, governments should not be trusted with that kind of control - even if there are altruistic people involved, the bureaucracy can't meet the changing demands of society. And there are few altruistic people involved in government. Personally, I think that people in the US shouldn't be thinking about solving problems with more welfare, but in figuring out what's wrong with existing welfare programs which are extensive. That and we need to revise the kind of productivity and consumer friendliness that we expect out of our government. Things like Universal Income wouldn't be considered if someone in trouble could expect to receive help in a timely manner, and if the help was smart and not tied to rules that don't make sense and put additional burdens on struggling people. Most people that are dissatisfied with our current welfare system would be astonished at the resources that are available, and frightened by the hoops that people have to jump through to receive much of it. We've been exposed in a small part by the health care changes recently, but I doubt anyone in my current social circle has experienced waiting in line for 16-24 hours at a social security office, nor have they known anyone who has tried to work for free in order to work their way up the ladder to a job that would both get them off of a welfare program and provide enough income to get by. I've gone off on a tangent, so I'll stop now. :) Your perspective was helpful to me.

by flexie 10y ago

_andromeda_ 10y ago

Scandinavian countries also happen to feature prominently in the list of the most expensive countries to live in and I don't think that in the long run it is sustainable - just ask the Greeks. Someone has to pay dearly for all these extravagant social programs. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/21/map-expensive-countries_n_6510018.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/21/map-expensive-count...

kwhitefoot 10y ago
> Someone has to pay Yes, and in Scandinavia we do. In Greece they didn't, hence the problem.

Steeeve 10y ago

I'm curious about this, because I have an entirely different perspective. I know nothing about Denmark, but I have seen that Sweden's student debt is on-par or higher than student debt in the U.S. despite free tuition. But earning potential in Sweden is much lower. How is class mobility in scandinavian states? Can you work your way up from the dregs of society to the top levels? If I want my kids to go to a great school like Stanford or Harvard, can I reasonably expect to be able to find a way to cover tuition as a member of the middle class? If I'm looking for a job in the $200k US range, what are my potential career options? What kind of housing can I expect to find if I'm a sole earner as a software engineer with a family of 6?

flexie 10y ago
Universities are not so divided into good and bad ones. Almost nobody think that way. Social mobility is higher than in the US but the highs are lower. Almost nobody makes $200k in Denmark, and fewer make it year after year. Even lawyers, dentists, medical doctors usually make less. But you also don't really need it. Public services such as schools, universities and hospitals are great. You wouldn't be able to live anywhere near Copenhagen if you are on a developer's salary and you need space for 4 kids. Most women in Denmark work. It's not a place designed for one income.
- Steeeve 10y ago
  Very interesting, thank you. > Speaking at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, Danish PM Lars Løkke Rasmussen told students that he had “absolutely no wish to interfere the presidential debate in the US” but nonetheless attempted to set the record straight about his country. > "I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,” Rasmussen said. > “The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,” he added. I just found this quote from the Danish PM. What I find interesting about it is that it indicates the kind of distrust of socialism that I grew up with. I don't feel that social programs are bad, but socialism as a political goal is particularly disturbing. Based on history, governments should not be trusted with that kind of control - even if there are altruistic people involved, the bureaucracy can't meet the changing demands of society. And there are few altruistic people involved in government. Personally, I think that people in the US shouldn't be thinking about solving problems with more welfare, but in figuring out what's wrong with existing welfare programs which are extensive. That and we need to revise the kind of productivity and consumer friendliness that we expect out of our government. Things like Universal Income wouldn't be considered if someone in trouble could expect to receive help in a timely manner, and if the help was smart and not tied to rules that don't make sense and put additional burdens on struggling people. Most people that are dissatisfied with our current welfare system would be astonished at the resources that are available, and frightened by the hoops that people have to jump through to receive much of it. We've been exposed in a small part by the health care changes recently, but I doubt anyone in my current social circle has experienced waiting in line for 16-24 hours at a social security office, nor have they known anyone who has tried to work for free in order to work their way up the ladder to a job that would both get them off of a welfare program and provide enough income to get by. I've gone off on a tangent, so I'll stop now. :) Your perspective was helpful to me.