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I wish Kenneth would have contributed to an existed project for once. Arrow and pendulum (my current favorite) have a very decent API. The later one is especia

I wish Kenneth would have contributed to an existed project for once. Arrow and pendulum (my current favorite) have a very decent API. The later one is especially well tested for the numerous corner cases of date handling, which I doubt Kenneth got right on first try. For request, a full rewrite made sense because urllib sucked so much and we had no good alternatives. But for date time, alternative exists and they are good. Do not split the open source effort, join forces!

KODeKarnage 10y ago
Who wishes that Requests didnt exist? That guy!!! ^^^^^^^
- ergo14 10y ago
  You comment makes no sense...
  - KODeKarnage 10y ago
    He wishes the guy was the sort of guy who contributed to other projects rather than doing his own thing. But if he WAS that sort of guy we wouldn't have Requests. I thought you guys were supposed to be smart.
    - stable-point 10y ago
      No, he doesn't: > For request, a full rewrite made sense because urllib sucked so much and we had no good alternatives.
      - KODeKarnage 10y ago
        > I wish Kenneth would have contributed to an existed project for once. Yes, he does. He wishes Kenneth was not the same as the existing Kenneth. He emphasizes this with the "for once". Kenneth went his own way with Requests, and everyone is better off for it. You do not want a guy with that track record abandoning his work patterns. I say, let the man be. Whining about "fracturing" in open source ignores those important things which makes progress possible; conflict, competition, and triumph. I see the original comment as being little more than a "yeah, it's nice, but you know, we already formed a committee and working group to do this thing".
        xapata 10y ago
        Perhaps you misunderstood his intent with "for once". Maybe he meant "this once".
        sametmax 10y ago
        The way Kennet went is "the API is everything". Well, for requests, yes. But for maya, his API is in now way an improvment for existing tech, so we don't gain much. But there is such a thing as having too many choices, and yes, him working on this project instead of the other one will have an impact : dividing attentions, publicity, everything, tutorials, everything.
        KODeKarnage 10y ago
        > him working on this project instead of the other one will have an impact : dividing attentions, publicity, everything, tutorials, everything. First of all, lets acknowledge that nobody really has the right to tell Kenneth what he should do. Having "too" many choices is merely a symptom of not having the best choice. Remember back when Google hadn't won the search engine war? Imagine someone had told the google-guys that they should just contribute to DogPile or AskJeeves? How backwards would those guys seem? And it isn't a choice of him working on his project, or some existing one. The choice is him working on this project or not at all. And given that he has a proven track record at producing brilliant stuff when he goes his own way, we would all be better off letting him get on with it.
        sametmax 10y ago
        > First of all, lets acknowledge that nobody really has the right to tell Kenneth what he should do. No. Just because somebody is good at what he does doesn't shield him magically from critics. As lib users, we have opinions and they matters. > Having "too" many choices is merely a symptom of not having the best choice. No, it's the symptom of not having a standard yet. The nice alternative arrived in the last 2 years, and didn't win the war yet. But they exist. And right now they ARE better than datetime and maya. But but you are twisting my words here, because I never told him what to do, I just express my wish he would do overwise. Which is totally fine. > Imagine someone had told the google-guys that they should just contribute to DogPile or AskJeeves? DogPile or Askjeeves where neither "good" nor opensource. Propriotary software are _absolutly_ not the same. And they brought something on the table, which maya does not. > And it isn't a choice of him working on his project, or some existing one. The choice is him working on this project or not at all. This is a supposition, not backed up by anything. > And given that he has a proven track record at producing brilliant stuff when he goes his own way, we would all be better off letting him get on with it. Just because somebody does something great doesn't mean he can't do something that isn't. And even if maya enventually becomes the best possible implementation. Event if I'm wrong. So what ? Open source is a collective efforts, you need the opinions of your peer to make decisions. Or else what's the point ?
robochat 10y ago
Right, there's arrow and pendulum and also http://delorean.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html http://delorean.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html plus the Datetime options offered by pandas and the numpy.datetime64 type. It gets to be pretty confusing particularly when you need to start transforming between the different types.
- sdoering 10y ago
  Ohhhh thanks. Used delorean some years ago and still have a soft spot... ... nice to see it mentioned.
jsnathan 10y ago
Worrying about split effort makes most sense when the problem is large and the amount of effort dedicated to the problem is limited, or when there are network effects that come from having more people involved in the project. I don't think that applies here. This library is not going to divert much (any?) effort that could have improved other date-time libraries.
- __jal 10y ago
  Exactly. This isn't X.org. The author has an itch to scratch, and scratched it in exactly the right way. Trying to funnel someone with an itch into a project is a bit like making someone on meth fill out paperwork: kills the buzz and works out poorly. And if just one human understands the nightmare of date handling a bit better, it is a positive thing for the humans.
- sametmax 10y ago
  If you contribute to any open source project, you quickly learn code is only a small (yet important) part of the effort. Other stuff that are splitted: - attention; - visibility; - pull requests; - documentation edits; - bug reports; - installs (and hence testing on the field); - compatibility layers; - compatible tooling; - 3rd party tutorials, snippets and examples; - help from integrators; Now if you don't have any very good alternatives, it's good : you want to steal that from them. But when you DO have good existing projects, then those are the bread and butter of their success. Now I know it's way harder to contribute to something than roll you own. I know that's it's also more fun to roll your own. And there is the ego at play as well. I understand all that, and I respect Kenneth as a professional. But I don't think it's a good call on his part here. It is espacially true for him, because he now have such a good rep in the Python community that everything he does get under the spotlight.
  - jsnathan 10y ago
    Have a look at the code [1]. There's maybe 20 lines of actual logic in there. Even taking all of what you mentioned into account, it's still not more than a single afternoon. I agree with you in general, splintering in open source is a real problem worth tackling, but this is just not a case where it makes any sense to worry about that. [1]: https://github.com/kennethreitz/maya/blob/master/maya.py https://github.com/kennethreitz/maya/blob/master/maya.py
detaro 10y ago
I'm not sure in this case. As it is now, Maya seems to be mostly a thin wrapper around existing libraries: it is all about the API, which is something where the authors of the various libraries seem to have very strong opinions about (with good reasons). There is not much in the way of actually re-implementing existing functionality, which I would see as a bigger issue.
rch 10y ago
Do either of those libraries have an equivalent to the 'slang time' feature?
- sametmax 10y ago
  Arrow does, and have more translations.
  - rch 10y ago
    Looks to me like Maya is focused on colloquial strings, while Arrow aspires to be a full datetime replacement. They're complementary. Maya could have been built to require Arrow, but it makes sense to avoid the dependency.

KODeKarnage 10y ago

Who wishes that Requests didnt exist? That guy!!! ^^^^^^^

ergo14 10y ago
You comment makes no sense...
- KODeKarnage 10y ago
  He wishes the guy was the sort of guy who contributed to other projects rather than doing his own thing. But if he WAS that sort of guy we wouldn't have Requests. I thought you guys were supposed to be smart.
  - stable-point 10y ago
    No, he doesn't: > For request, a full rewrite made sense because urllib sucked so much and we had no good alternatives.
    - KODeKarnage 10y ago
      > I wish Kenneth would have contributed to an existed project for once. Yes, he does. He wishes Kenneth was not the same as the existing Kenneth. He emphasizes this with the "for once". Kenneth went his own way with Requests, and everyone is better off for it. You do not want a guy with that track record abandoning his work patterns. I say, let the man be. Whining about "fracturing" in open source ignores those important things which makes progress possible; conflict, competition, and triumph. I see the original comment as being little more than a "yeah, it's nice, but you know, we already formed a committee and working group to do this thing".
      - xapata 10y ago
        Perhaps you misunderstood his intent with "for once". Maybe he meant "this once".
      - sametmax 10y ago
        The way Kennet went is "the API is everything". Well, for requests, yes. But for maya, his API is in now way an improvment for existing tech, so we don't gain much. But there is such a thing as having too many choices, and yes, him working on this project instead of the other one will have an impact : dividing attentions, publicity, everything, tutorials, everything.
        KODeKarnage 10y ago
        > him working on this project instead of the other one will have an impact : dividing attentions, publicity, everything, tutorials, everything. First of all, lets acknowledge that nobody really has the right to tell Kenneth what he should do. Having "too" many choices is merely a symptom of not having the best choice. Remember back when Google hadn't won the search engine war? Imagine someone had told the google-guys that they should just contribute to DogPile or AskJeeves? How backwards would those guys seem? And it isn't a choice of him working on his project, or some existing one. The choice is him working on this project or not at all. And given that he has a proven track record at producing brilliant stuff when he goes his own way, we would all be better off letting him get on with it.
        sametmax 10y ago
        > First of all, lets acknowledge that nobody really has the right to tell Kenneth what he should do. No. Just because somebody is good at what he does doesn't shield him magically from critics. As lib users, we have opinions and they matters. > Having "too" many choices is merely a symptom of not having the best choice. No, it's the symptom of not having a standard yet. The nice alternative arrived in the last 2 years, and didn't win the war yet. But they exist. And right now they ARE better than datetime and maya. But but you are twisting my words here, because I never told him what to do, I just express my wish he would do overwise. Which is totally fine. > Imagine someone had told the google-guys that they should just contribute to DogPile or AskJeeves? DogPile or Askjeeves where neither "good" nor opensource. Propriotary software are _absolutly_ not the same. And they brought something on the table, which maya does not. > And it isn't a choice of him working on his project, or some existing one. The choice is him working on this project or not at all. This is a supposition, not backed up by anything. > And given that he has a proven track record at producing brilliant stuff when he goes his own way, we would all be better off letting him get on with it. Just because somebody does something great doesn't mean he can't do something that isn't. And even if maya enventually becomes the best possible implementation. Event if I'm wrong. So what ? Open source is a collective efforts, you need the opinions of your peer to make decisions. Or else what's the point ?

robochat 10y ago

Right, there's arrow and pendulum and also http://delorean.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html http://delorean.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html plus the Datetime options offered by pandas and the numpy.datetime64 type. It gets to be pretty confusing particularly when you need to start transforming between the different types.

sdoering 10y ago
Ohhhh thanks. Used delorean some years ago and still have a soft spot... ... nice to see it mentioned.

jsnathan 10y ago

Worrying about split effort makes most sense when the problem is large and the amount of effort dedicated to the problem is limited, or when there are network effects that come from having more people involved in the project. I don't think that applies here. This library is not going to divert much (any?) effort that could have improved other date-time libraries.

__jal 10y ago
Exactly. This isn't X.org. The author has an itch to scratch, and scratched it in exactly the right way. Trying to funnel someone with an itch into a project is a bit like making someone on meth fill out paperwork: kills the buzz and works out poorly. And if just one human understands the nightmare of date handling a bit better, it is a positive thing for the humans.
sametmax 10y ago
If you contribute to any open source project, you quickly learn code is only a small (yet important) part of the effort. Other stuff that are splitted: - attention; - visibility; - pull requests; - documentation edits; - bug reports; - installs (and hence testing on the field); - compatibility layers; - compatible tooling; - 3rd party tutorials, snippets and examples; - help from integrators; Now if you don't have any very good alternatives, it's good : you want to steal that from them. But when you DO have good existing projects, then those are the bread and butter of their success. Now I know it's way harder to contribute to something than roll you own. I know that's it's also more fun to roll your own. And there is the ego at play as well. I understand all that, and I respect Kenneth as a professional. But I don't think it's a good call on his part here. It is espacially true for him, because he now have such a good rep in the Python community that everything he does get under the spotlight.
- jsnathan 10y ago
  Have a look at the code [1]. There's maybe 20 lines of actual logic in there. Even taking all of what you mentioned into account, it's still not more than a single afternoon. I agree with you in general, splintering in open source is a real problem worth tackling, but this is just not a case where it makes any sense to worry about that. [1]: https://github.com/kennethreitz/maya/blob/master/maya.py https://github.com/kennethreitz/maya/blob/master/maya.py

detaro 10y ago

I'm not sure in this case. As it is now, Maya seems to be mostly a thin wrapper around existing libraries: it is all about the API, which is something where the authors of the various libraries seem to have very strong opinions about (with good reasons). There is not much in the way of actually re-implementing existing functionality, which I would see as a bigger issue.

rch 10y ago

Do either of those libraries have an equivalent to the 'slang time' feature?

sametmax 10y ago
Arrow does, and have more translations.
- rch 10y ago
  Looks to me like Maya is focused on colloquial strings, while Arrow aspires to be a full datetime replacement. They're complementary. Maya could have been built to require Arrow, but it makes sense to avoid the dependency.