12 ms·

We've started giving money to a small pilot group. We're still working out the kinks but expanding it slowly. The plan is still to run the pilot until we're c

by sama 10y ago

We've started giving money to a small pilot group. We're still working out the kinks but expanding it slowly. The plan is still to run the pilot until we're confident everything is working well (especially with issues like making sure no one loses eligibility for income-based benefits) and then start the full-scale study.

anondon 10y ago
What is the status of the MOOC? When can we expect additional details? YC should consider writing the occasional blog post about the projects it's working, it would be interesting to follow and the feedback from HN might be useful.
- jbpetersen 10y ago
  Perhaps something like status.ycombinator.com for the briefly summarized current states of various things?
- sama 10y ago
  We'll announce details on structure and timing in January. Good idea; I may try something like a "State of YC" update once every 3-6 months.
  - tomcam 10y ago
    Thanks, would love that if you can find the time.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  Would YC really be upfront about the success or failure of this experiment? Most people are shy enough about failures in professional contexts where impacts are isolated to the company itself. The outcome of this pilot has real potential political ramifications, further disincentivizing those who're committed to basic income (as YC obviously is) from revealing any serious flaws or difficulties experienced, beyond the typical already-pretty-strong impulse to keep failed experiments under wraps (and when they are discussed, to generalize and gloss over the more painful/sticky parts). I know we all admire YC here, but let's be practical about it. They're not going to drum up any more bad press for themselves than necessary.
  - labster 10y ago
    I'd expect them to report accurately. You have to remember, the expected result of a startup is failure, so they're used to dealing with that. I don't see why this would be any different.
  - evanwolf 10y ago
    It's all about the feedback loop. Failure analysis (where necessary) is more than a bumpersticker obituary. And we also need to catch lessons learned along the way, both the microfailures we learn from and the assumptions we tested and proved correct/incorrect. Last, it's vital to turn periodic recaps into more organized and systematic bodies-of-knowledge so it's fast/easy to learn from the history we're writing together.
jimmydddd 10y ago
Yes. Losing eligibility for programs is a big issue. Reminds me of when I had an elderly family member's situation optimized for maximum benefits between medicare, medicaid, subsidized housing (section 8) and other benefits. One of her (well-meaning) neighbors found out she wasn't getting a certain benefit and took her (without advising me) to an agency to sign her up. Unfortunately, that event had cascading effects that caused her to lose other benefits. The situation took me a year to undo.
_andromeda_ 10y ago
Egalitarianism always collapses on itself. The incentive structure that is created when you take resources from producers to award to non-producers (who are often indolent actors) is horrible. Many many experiments have been conducted and all failed miserably leading to the suffering and death of millions. I mean, Soviet farmers usually opted to kill their livestock as opposed to having government take it and redistribute it equitably. We don't need to go through that again. These notions should be nipped at the bud.
- solipsism 10y ago
  Nonsense. There are social programs that have been incredibly successful. And pointing to the USSR is a shameful strawman.
  - _andromeda_ 10y ago
    Are you arguing against basic human nature? For the vast majority of people, if they don't have to work in order to earn, most people will choose not to work. So then who supports these folks? The people who put in actual graft. But the question is, for how long? Is this sustainable. This is a mindset and it must be fought against vehemently. You want to help people? Advocate for the following: - hard work as opposed to indolence - savings culture as opposed to consumption of capital goods - innovation/engagement as opposed to being dullards - celebrating and rewarding achievement based on genuine merit as opposed to cuddling our young ones - skill acquisition by reading books as opposed to watching TV and partying You want a utopia but none of the sacrifice required to attain it. That's not going to work.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      > For the vast majority of people, if they don't have to work in order to earn, most people will choose not to work. So then who supports these folks? Those people are already being supported with fantastically expensive bureaucratic benefit systems. Sometimes those systems also act as a disincentive to return to work, trapping people on benefits, by making it impossible for them to get education or work experience or part time work. Once you have these massive bureaucracies they sustain themselves by land-grabbing more work. Here's one example from the UK. A man claiming benefits gets temporary work on a zero hour contract. He needs to sign off benefits, so he calls (because that how you do things now) the helpline. "Is this position going to last longer than 5 weeks?" He has no idea. But they will only take a yes or no answer. He is unable to convey that he has no idea whether the job will last for more than 5 weeks or not. For people who don't know the system it's tempting to just say "it doesn't matter, just take her suggestion and move on to the next question", but sadly the penalty for getting a question wrong (even if you've used their suggested answer) is that you have your benefits suspended or sanctioned. > celebrating and rewarding achievement based on genuine merit as opposed to cuddling our young ones You should reward effort, not necessarily achievement. Note that this is different to "cuddling our young ones". This is apparently especially important for smart children.
_andromeda_ 10y ago
There is no other way to define this except that it is socialism brewing here. In that light, I'd like to refer you to the words of Milton Friedman, 'If you want to learn the truth about socialism, look at how people vote with their feet'. People always leave socialist nations when their inevitable collapse occurs. Please folks, I'd like to urge you to reconsider such initiatives. Take a look at these two articles about how this kind of mindset has ruined lives in Venezuela: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-06-06/socialism-is-devastating-venezuela-and-americans-dont-seem-to-notice http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-06-06/socialism-... http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/12/17/world/americas/ap-lt-venezuela-currency-chaos.html http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/12/17/world/americas/ap... From the articles: For many Americans, it's a news story piped in from a faraway place. For me? It's my friends and family who are suffering at the hands of an increasingly powerful and paranoid dictatorial regime. As a kid growing up in Caracas, I remember the difficult decision my parents had to make when Hugo Chavez attempted his coup and took over shortly thereafter. The force that is driving Venezuela into the ground is socialism. In the midst of this chaos, I see people in the United States – most of whom have never known a life outside of the abundance available to them as a result of our market economy – gravitating toward socialism like it's some natural force for good. As reported in these pages, a recent survey shows that nearly 60 percent of 18 to 26 year-olds believe socialism is the "most compassionate system." socialism operates under the assumption that an insulated leader and his legion of bureaucrats are the best judges of what people are worth. And the most important part: Socialism assumes that government officials are more qualified than individuals to decide how much a person should earn, which products and services are necessary for that person to live and how much that person should have to pay for them.
- raleighm 10y ago
  Friedman himself would disagree with you. He supported a related idea - a negative income tax. Hear him describe it here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM. This is not a capitalism vs socialism or left vs right issue.
  - _andromeda_ 10y ago

by sama 10y ago

anondon 10y ago

What is the status of the MOOC? When can we expect additional details? YC should consider writing the occasional blog post about the projects it's working, it would be interesting to follow and the feedback from HN might be useful.

jbpetersen 10y ago
Perhaps something like status.ycombinator.com for the briefly summarized current states of various things?
sama 10y ago
We'll announce details on structure and timing in January. Good idea; I may try something like a "State of YC" update once every 3-6 months.
- tomcam 10y ago
  Thanks, would love that if you can find the time.
cookiecaper 10y ago
Would YC really be upfront about the success or failure of this experiment? Most people are shy enough about failures in professional contexts where impacts are isolated to the company itself. The outcome of this pilot has real potential political ramifications, further disincentivizing those who're committed to basic income (as YC obviously is) from revealing any serious flaws or difficulties experienced, beyond the typical already-pretty-strong impulse to keep failed experiments under wraps (and when they are discussed, to generalize and gloss over the more painful/sticky parts). I know we all admire YC here, but let's be practical about it. They're not going to drum up any more bad press for themselves than necessary.
- labster 10y ago
  I'd expect them to report accurately. You have to remember, the expected result of a startup is failure, so they're used to dealing with that. I don't see why this would be any different.
- evanwolf 10y ago
  It's all about the feedback loop. Failure analysis (where necessary) is more than a bumpersticker obituary. And we also need to catch lessons learned along the way, both the microfailures we learn from and the assumptions we tested and proved correct/incorrect. Last, it's vital to turn periodic recaps into more organized and systematic bodies-of-knowledge so it's fast/easy to learn from the history we're writing together.

jimmydddd 10y ago

Yes. Losing eligibility for programs is a big issue. Reminds me of when I had an elderly family member's situation optimized for maximum benefits between medicare, medicaid, subsidized housing (section 8) and other benefits. One of her (well-meaning) neighbors found out she wasn't getting a certain benefit and took her (without advising me) to an agency to sign her up. Unfortunately, that event had cascading effects that caused her to lose other benefits. The situation took me a year to undo.

_andromeda_ 10y ago

Egalitarianism always collapses on itself. The incentive structure that is created when you take resources from producers to award to non-producers (who are often indolent actors) is horrible. Many many experiments have been conducted and all failed miserably leading to the suffering and death of millions. I mean, Soviet farmers usually opted to kill their livestock as opposed to having government take it and redistribute it equitably. We don't need to go through that again. These notions should be nipped at the bud.

solipsism 10y ago
Nonsense. There are social programs that have been incredibly successful. And pointing to the USSR is a shameful strawman.
- _andromeda_ 10y ago
  Are you arguing against basic human nature? For the vast majority of people, if they don't have to work in order to earn, most people will choose not to work. So then who supports these folks? The people who put in actual graft. But the question is, for how long? Is this sustainable. This is a mindset and it must be fought against vehemently. You want to help people? Advocate for the following: - hard work as opposed to indolence - savings culture as opposed to consumption of capital goods - innovation/engagement as opposed to being dullards - celebrating and rewarding achievement based on genuine merit as opposed to cuddling our young ones - skill acquisition by reading books as opposed to watching TV and partying You want a utopia but none of the sacrifice required to attain it. That's not going to work.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > For the vast majority of people, if they don't have to work in order to earn, most people will choose not to work. So then who supports these folks? Those people are already being supported with fantastically expensive bureaucratic benefit systems. Sometimes those systems also act as a disincentive to return to work, trapping people on benefits, by making it impossible for them to get education or work experience or part time work. Once you have these massive bureaucracies they sustain themselves by land-grabbing more work. Here's one example from the UK. A man claiming benefits gets temporary work on a zero hour contract. He needs to sign off benefits, so he calls (because that how you do things now) the helpline. "Is this position going to last longer than 5 weeks?" He has no idea. But they will only take a yes or no answer. He is unable to convey that he has no idea whether the job will last for more than 5 weeks or not. For people who don't know the system it's tempting to just say "it doesn't matter, just take her suggestion and move on to the next question", but sadly the penalty for getting a question wrong (even if you've used their suggested answer) is that you have your benefits suspended or sanctioned. > celebrating and rewarding achievement based on genuine merit as opposed to cuddling our young ones You should reward effort, not necessarily achievement. Note that this is different to "cuddling our young ones". This is apparently especially important for smart children.

_andromeda_ 10y ago

There is no other way to define this except that it is socialism brewing here. In that light, I'd like to refer you to the words of Milton Friedman, 'If you want to learn the truth about socialism, look at how people vote with their feet'. People always leave socialist nations when their inevitable collapse occurs. Please folks, I'd like to urge you to reconsider such initiatives. Take a look at these two articles about how this kind of mindset has ruined lives in Venezuela: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-06-06/socialism-is-devastating-venezuela-and-americans-dont-seem-to-notice http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-06-06/socialism-... http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/12/17/world/americas/ap-lt-venezuela-currency-chaos.html http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/12/17/world/americas/ap... From the articles: For many Americans, it's a news story piped in from a faraway place. For me? It's my friends and family who are suffering at the hands of an increasingly powerful and paranoid dictatorial regime. As a kid growing up in Caracas, I remember the difficult decision my parents had to make when Hugo Chavez attempted his coup and took over shortly thereafter. The force that is driving Venezuela into the ground is socialism. In the midst of this chaos, I see people in the United States – most of whom have never known a life outside of the abundance available to them as a result of our market economy – gravitating toward socialism like it's some natural force for good. As reported in these pages, a recent survey shows that nearly 60 percent of 18 to 26 year-olds believe socialism is the "most compassionate system." socialism operates under the assumption that an insulated leader and his legion of bureaucrats are the best judges of what people are worth. And the most important part: Socialism assumes that government officials are more qualified than individuals to decide how much a person should earn, which products and services are necessary for that person to live and how much that person should have to pay for them.

raleighm 10y ago
Friedman himself would disagree with you. He supported a related idea - a negative income tax. Hear him describe it here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM. This is not a capitalism vs socialism or left vs right issue.
- _andromeda_ 10y ago