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As westerners we honor free speech and we do not like censorship. We do not like torture or political imprisonment. I was offering my experience in discussing t

by hkon 10y ago

As westerners we honor free speech and we do not like censorship. We do not like torture or political imprisonment. I was offering my experience in discussing these issues with chinese people of whom I know a lot. Part of my point was to bring forth the fact that stuff we automatically think of as bad, is pretty much a non-issue for the chinese, because to them it makes sense. Human rights, democracy and free speech is better than oppression.

smallnamespace 10y ago
Do you think that the Chinese people you talk to are wrong then, and that the Chinese should wholeheartedly adopt Western values, or that people in each society should find solutions that make sense in terms of their own historical development and cultural norms? I'd like to remind you that the track record of simply imposing a formal Western model of governance (with a written Constitution, laws, elections, the whole shebang) on societies that are used to other ways of doing things hasn't tended worked out very well -- e.g. Iraq or Afghanistan.
- hkon 10y ago
  Yes, I think they are wrong. I understand your point, but not your intention. Cultures are different. Some cultures are better than others. I think western culture is the best and I would like everyone to experience the same freedoms we do.
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    > I think western culture is the best I thought that Westerners finally agreed that cultural imperialism is bad? Yet here you are proclaiming the superiority of Western culture over all other cultures. It's wrong to judge another culture without having lived in it yourself for some time. I don't even mean this on a just moral level, but simply on a practical one -- if you've never lived somewhere, how do you know if their society works well or not? It's very easy to get incorrect impressions from news or talking to people.
    - hkon 10y ago
      Of course we can judge, we even have some standardized criterias to use. Adherence to the basic human rights as laid out by the UN. I would say any society who adheres the closest to the human rights is the best. The further away, the lower rank it has. I don't have to live somewhere for an extended period of time to make judgements based on established "best practises" for human societies.
      - smallnamespace 10y ago
        Human rights is largely a Western idea [1] and the UN was founded, dominated, and run largely by Western nations (Russia is sort of half-way between East and West in that sense), so your argument reduces to 'any society that best adheres to Western political and social norms is the best'. You may even be correct that Western norms are objectively the best way to run a society. It just seems to me that you're remarkably unwilling to analyze or challenge your own cultural biases and assumptions even a little bit, even though that careful, rational analysis is very much part of Western culture. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights#16th.E2.80.9318th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights#16th.E2.80.9318th...
        hkon 10y ago
        Yes, thanks for clarifying the origin of human rights. It makes the west even better. Imagine, we came up with the concept. I also think you are agreeing with me, but for some reason you find my statements hard to accept. Sometimes challenge and analysis is good, sometimes it's a waste of time. I think this is a case of the latter.
        smallnamespace 10y ago
        I don't agree with you at all. The best part of Western culture is rationalism and analysis. The West moved from monarchy to democracy and developed human rights over hundreds of years of smart people criticizing their own societies and asking how to improve it. That included studying other societies and keeping an open mind about what works best. That's day and night from your openly dismissive, close-minded attitude. To the original question, I think a naive and direct transplantation of Western political forms to China would be an unmitigated disaster precisely because of cultural differences. China should find its own path to creating a just society without slavishly and uncritically copying the West (but it should look abroad for good ideas).

by hkon 10y ago

smallnamespace 10y ago

Do you think that the Chinese people you talk to are wrong then, and that the Chinese should wholeheartedly adopt Western values, or that people in each society should find solutions that make sense in terms of their own historical development and cultural norms? I'd like to remind you that the track record of simply imposing a formal Western model of governance (with a written Constitution, laws, elections, the whole shebang) on societies that are used to other ways of doing things hasn't tended worked out very well -- e.g. Iraq or Afghanistan.

hkon 10y ago
Yes, I think they are wrong. I understand your point, but not your intention. Cultures are different. Some cultures are better than others. I think western culture is the best and I would like everyone to experience the same freedoms we do.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  > I think western culture is the best I thought that Westerners finally agreed that cultural imperialism is bad? Yet here you are proclaiming the superiority of Western culture over all other cultures. It's wrong to judge another culture without having lived in it yourself for some time. I don't even mean this on a just moral level, but simply on a practical one -- if you've never lived somewhere, how do you know if their society works well or not? It's very easy to get incorrect impressions from news or talking to people.
  - hkon 10y ago
    Of course we can judge, we even have some standardized criterias to use. Adherence to the basic human rights as laid out by the UN. I would say any society who adheres the closest to the human rights is the best. The further away, the lower rank it has. I don't have to live somewhere for an extended period of time to make judgements based on established "best practises" for human societies.
    - smallnamespace 10y ago
      Human rights is largely a Western idea [1] and the UN was founded, dominated, and run largely by Western nations (Russia is sort of half-way between East and West in that sense), so your argument reduces to 'any society that best adheres to Western political and social norms is the best'. You may even be correct that Western norms are objectively the best way to run a society. It just seems to me that you're remarkably unwilling to analyze or challenge your own cultural biases and assumptions even a little bit, even though that careful, rational analysis is very much part of Western culture. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights#16th.E2.80.9318th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights#16th.E2.80.9318th...
      - hkon 10y ago
        Yes, thanks for clarifying the origin of human rights. It makes the west even better. Imagine, we came up with the concept. I also think you are agreeing with me, but for some reason you find my statements hard to accept. Sometimes challenge and analysis is good, sometimes it's a waste of time. I think this is a case of the latter.
        smallnamespace 10y ago
        I don't agree with you at all. The best part of Western culture is rationalism and analysis. The West moved from monarchy to democracy and developed human rights over hundreds of years of smart people criticizing their own societies and asking how to improve it. That included studying other societies and keeping an open mind about what works best. That's day and night from your openly dismissive, close-minded attitude. To the original question, I think a naive and direct transplantation of Western political forms to China would be an unmitigated disaster precisely because of cultural differences. China should find its own path to creating a just society without slavishly and uncritically copying the West (but it should look abroad for good ideas).