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> No, it doesn't, because the ACLU has a degree of power and legitimacy in the US which the Chinese government would not allow to any equivalent organization. T

> No, it doesn't, because the ACLU has a degree of power and legitimacy in the US which the Chinese government would not allow to any equivalent organization. The ACLU has actually won cases in court which effected a change in law and/or behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weiquan_lawyers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weiquan_lawyers > I have to imagine that in China... a) Had Washington had its way the documents never would have seen the light of day. They broke international law to ground planes in search of Snowden. They blocked as much of the documents as they could from being shared. They spread rumors about malware on Wikileaks. They worked with the media industry to not cover the contents and to work on the messaging to the American people: "This is bulk collection, not mass surveillance." Their official and public statements on the contents and scope of the programs were repeatedly shown to be false. They passed a law legalizing and expanding authorities and passed this off to the public as their stopping the programs, while the media ran 24/7 news about Caitlyn Jenning. The UK infiltrated the Guardian at gunpoint and destroyed the documents. b) The laws are in place for exactly this. Snowden, had he been caught, would have been in military prison. His lawyers are arguing today the terms of a trial for him to come home, with senior members of our government calling for his execution. The US government under the Obama Justice Department has compromised on a secret jury-less trial in the Virginia legal subsystem (notable for prosecuting National Security cases, and siding with National Security over individual rights). Remember Chelsea Manning's court case? I don't.

pavlov 10y ago
The very link you posted refers to the problems that human rights lawyers face in China. They are estimated to number only a few dozen, in a country of 1.3 billion citizens. (This info is right there in your link!) It's absurd to compare this environment to the ACLU. In 1986, Gorbachev released Andrei Sakharov from internal exile. I guess you would have been saying: "That's it, the West can stop harping about human rights in the Soviet Union, it's all equal now"...?
- zhemao 10y ago
  And besides their small number, they are also often jailed and abused for taking on cases (mentioned in the article itself). There was a high profile case involving Chen Guancheng, who escaped house arrest and sought refuge in the US embassy. He was granted asylum and now lives in the US. To my knowledge, there has not been a case of an ACLU lawyer being jailed or harassed simply for taking on a case.
- xnull2guest 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitong_Law_Firm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitong_Law_Firm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Human_Rights_Lawyers_Concern_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Human_Rights_Lawyers_Con... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Constitution_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Constitution_Initiative You read the first Wikipedia article looking for reasons to dismiss it. There's plenty of Civil Rights activity in China. It's a myopic American view that there is none and "no true Scotsman" all the civil rights law firms, attorneys and court cases should be dismissed out of hand for consideration. In China, most disputes are resolved without institutional involvement whatsoever. Off the bat it's difficult to point to institutions and institutional processes and claim China doesn't have equivalence. You are right. China is different. But it's not some wasteland dystopia from a fantasy novel. It has a wide and active civil society. That civil society is uniquely Chinese, and frankly, it's exciting to see it blossom as it has been since the 80s. The most shocking thing is that the United States thinks China and Chinese society is a country to compare itself to. The ignorance of these comparisons is nearly as shocking.
  - pavlov 10y ago
    Again, I can't believe you're bringing out these links as evidence of a healthy civil society in China. All the events described indicate active long-term persecution by the government. (Why do you think China Human Rights Lawyers Concern Group is based in Hong Kong?) Your argument could have been made about the Soviet Union in the late '80s. I grew up in Finland, and I remember people actually saying that: defending the Soviet human rights record, saying Russia is different, and pretending that a sprinkling of perestroika has fixed everything. It was complete bullshit then, and it's the same today in China.
    - jimnotgym 10y ago
      >Why do you think China Human Rights Lawyers Concern Group is based in Hong Kong? Because Hong Kong is part of China, probably?
dispose13432 10y ago
And the simple proof is that you're able to write this _on an American website_. Are there open debates about Chinese civil rights on Chinese websites?
- xnull2guest 10y ago
  I was actually asked to leave. My comments and opinions have been deleted, hidden, shadowbanned and obscured elsewhere. Indeed, it's hard to find a place on American social media where dissenting opinions can be argued. There's either an administrative agreement to shut the ideas down, or places (such as HN) don't like the idea of having opinions on their site for whatever reason (harmful to the community) so they shut it down. I'm certainly not getting thrown in jail. But you won't hear any dissenting opinions.
  - dispose13432 10y ago
    >I was actually asked to leave By the FBI? Do you think some government agency actually complained to the owner of Y-Combinator threatening them with reprisals unless they evict you?
  - mattnewton 10y ago
    For what it's worth I've been upvoting you for giving me great perspective. It's not often I get to hear about China outside the American media lense, and so I tend to think of it as a real-life IngSoc state. And we both agree America won't get better by saying "china has it way worse guys"

pavlov 10y ago

The very link you posted refers to the problems that human rights lawyers face in China. They are estimated to number only a few dozen, in a country of 1.3 billion citizens. (This info is right there in your link!) It's absurd to compare this environment to the ACLU. In 1986, Gorbachev released Andrei Sakharov from internal exile. I guess you would have been saying: "That's it, the West can stop harping about human rights in the Soviet Union, it's all equal now"...?

zhemao 10y ago
And besides their small number, they are also often jailed and abused for taking on cases (mentioned in the article itself). There was a high profile case involving Chen Guancheng, who escaped house arrest and sought refuge in the US embassy. He was granted asylum and now lives in the US. To my knowledge, there has not been a case of an ACLU lawyer being jailed or harassed simply for taking on a case.
xnull2guest 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitong_Law_Firm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitong_Law_Firm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Human_Rights_Lawyers_Concern_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Human_Rights_Lawyers_Con... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Constitution_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Constitution_Initiative You read the first Wikipedia article looking for reasons to dismiss it. There's plenty of Civil Rights activity in China. It's a myopic American view that there is none and "no true Scotsman" all the civil rights law firms, attorneys and court cases should be dismissed out of hand for consideration. In China, most disputes are resolved without institutional involvement whatsoever. Off the bat it's difficult to point to institutions and institutional processes and claim China doesn't have equivalence. You are right. China is different. But it's not some wasteland dystopia from a fantasy novel. It has a wide and active civil society. That civil society is uniquely Chinese, and frankly, it's exciting to see it blossom as it has been since the 80s. The most shocking thing is that the United States thinks China and Chinese society is a country to compare itself to. The ignorance of these comparisons is nearly as shocking.
- pavlov 10y ago
  Again, I can't believe you're bringing out these links as evidence of a healthy civil society in China. All the events described indicate active long-term persecution by the government. (Why do you think China Human Rights Lawyers Concern Group is based in Hong Kong?) Your argument could have been made about the Soviet Union in the late '80s. I grew up in Finland, and I remember people actually saying that: defending the Soviet human rights record, saying Russia is different, and pretending that a sprinkling of perestroika has fixed everything. It was complete bullshit then, and it's the same today in China.
  - jimnotgym 10y ago
    >Why do you think China Human Rights Lawyers Concern Group is based in Hong Kong? Because Hong Kong is part of China, probably?

dispose13432 10y ago

And the simple proof is that you're able to write this _on an American website_. Are there open debates about Chinese civil rights on Chinese websites?

xnull2guest 10y ago
I was actually asked to leave. My comments and opinions have been deleted, hidden, shadowbanned and obscured elsewhere. Indeed, it's hard to find a place on American social media where dissenting opinions can be argued. There's either an administrative agreement to shut the ideas down, or places (such as HN) don't like the idea of having opinions on their site for whatever reason (harmful to the community) so they shut it down. I'm certainly not getting thrown in jail. But you won't hear any dissenting opinions.
- dispose13432 10y ago
  >I was actually asked to leave By the FBI? Do you think some government agency actually complained to the owner of Y-Combinator threatening them with reprisals unless they evict you?
- mattnewton 10y ago
  For what it's worth I've been upvoting you for giving me great perspective. It's not often I get to hear about China outside the American media lense, and so I tend to think of it as a real-life IngSoc state. And we both agree America won't get better by saying "china has it way worse guys"