6 ms·

I absolutely agree this is propaganda, but I think there is a meaningful distinction about the degree this is done in China vs here. America cannot completely c

I absolutely agree this is propaganda, but I think there is a meaningful distinction about the degree this is done in China vs here. America cannot completely censor something internally, because we have no great firewall, despite being able to practically do it for millions relying on facebook. And that is a meaningful difference, the difference between some and almost none. We cannot make a political dissidents life as hard as it is in china, with originizations like the ACLU, and that too is a meaningful difference of degree. The goals of the organizations doing these things are not always aligned either, since many of them do have to maintain consumer trust they aren't always on the same page as the government, and that's a meaningful friction that doesn't exist AFAICT in China. I hope Americans don't get cynical enough to discredit that we have more rights and they are worth fighting for, because it could always get far worse.

xnull2guest 10y ago
The article overplayed the contrast and underplayed the comparison. China has civil rights organizations parallel to the ACLU, and in America civil rights activists and journalists are routinely finding themselves charged with crimes, in prison or harassed. I myself have been harassed (followed, gaslit, personally surveilled, and threatened) by state police in America, for sharing Snowden documents and their contents. My mail between my relatives and I were opened. All subtle hints and threats: stop being outspoken. Following the state of the law with regard to providers and services in the United States, I think you've overemphasized the capability for companies to fight back, as the pressure from the state is incredible and at every front. Primarily, PR is used to emphasize that businesses are really on consumers' sides: that they'd like to not provide data and access. But in actuality, being a successful company at the scale you need to survive means working hand in hand with the US government. We saw how large ("trusted") brands worked hand-in-hand with government by the Snowden documents and we've watched it slip further since. > I hope Americans don't get cynical enough to discredit that we have more rights and they are worth fighting for, because it could always get far worse. We have the same rights worth fighting for that the Chinese have. Government does not give us rights. The rights are independent of government. Americans and Chinese have the same rights. Both governments are impeding on them. Washington DOES NOT give Americans more rights than the Chinese. Rights have never been something Washington can give. What you are seeing is Washington taking rights, and pointing fingers at the Chinese, telling you that they're taking more. You want to fight for rights? You can't fight the Chinese for your rights. You have to fight Washington for your rights.
- adamsea 10y ago
  > China has civil rights organizations parallel to the ACLU No, it doesn't, because the ACLU has a degree of power and legitimacy in the US which the Chinese government would not allow to any equivalent organization. The ACLU has actually won cases in court which effected a change in law and/or behavior. > I myself have been harassed (followed, gaslit, personally surveilled, and threatened) by state police in America, for sharing Snowden documents and their contents. My mail between my relatives and I were opened. All subtle hints and threats: stop being outspoken. Without minimizing the wrongness, illegality, or harm those things have done to you, I have to imagine that in China, a) Snowden documents would never have seen the light of day, and, b) If you had attempted to share something like that you would have been imprisoned without trial. As the parent poster said, the difference between some and none is significant. I do agree with the ultimate statement of you post, about fighting for rights.
  - xnull2guest 10y ago
    > No, it doesn't, because the ACLU has a degree of power and legitimacy in the US which the Chinese government would not allow to any equivalent organization. The ACLU has actually won cases in court which effected a change in law and/or behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weiquan_lawyers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weiquan_lawyers > I have to imagine that in China... a) Had Washington had its way the documents never would have seen the light of day. They broke international law to ground planes in search of Snowden. They blocked as much of the documents as they could from being shared. They spread rumors about malware on Wikileaks. They worked with the media industry to not cover the contents and to work on the messaging to the American people: "This is bulk collection, not mass surveillance." Their official and public statements on the contents and scope of the programs were repeatedly shown to be false. They passed a law legalizing and expanding authorities and passed this off to the public as their stopping the programs, while the media ran 24/7 news about Caitlyn Jenning. The UK infiltrated the Guardian at gunpoint and destroyed the documents. b) The laws are in place for exactly this. Snowden, had he been caught, would have been in military prison. His lawyers are arguing today the terms of a trial for him to come home, with senior members of our government calling for his execution. The US government under the Obama Justice Department has compromised on a secret jury-less trial in the Virginia legal subsystem (notable for prosecuting National Security cases, and siding with National Security over individual rights). Remember Chelsea Manning's court case? I don't.
digi_owl 10y ago
I suspect USA don't need a great firewall, because so few of the public can read anything but english. In contrast anyone Chinese that are active online effectively has to be capable of understanding both english and Chinese.
- zhemao 10y ago
  Why would not reading anything other than English matter? There are a large number of English language news sources based outside the US. Even inside the US, there is a wide range of news sources with varying ideologies.
- icebraining 10y ago
  In contrast anyone Chinese that are active online effectively has to be capable of understanding both english and Chinese. I find that hard to believe. I know it's not true for Portuguese native speakers, and China seems to be even more keen on providing native alternatives to foreign sites.
wallace_f 10y ago
> I hope Americans don't get cynical enough to discredit that we have more rights and they are worth fighting for, because it could always get far worse. That's a really good point--those of us in America are lucky to be here. Do you think people are fighting enough, though? Amy Goodman was nearly thrown in jail just for covering the Dakota Pipeline Protests--what punishment will be handed out in response to that egregious attempt at violating civil rights in America. Right now it looks like: none. Another example: At least one Journalist has been physically detained, searched and had equipment seized for travelling to cover the Dakota Pipeline Protests.^1 What about the fact that the Iraqi government was desperately trying to prove they did not have chemical weapons or weapons of mass destruction, and the Bush administration hid this from the public?^2 Even though that is a proven, factually-substantiated conspiracy, and it is not technically censored, how many Americans would you guess are aware that happened? In my experience, most aren't. What about whistle blower protections? Human rights abuses? Guantanamo? Police brutality? Legalized propaganda? Our actions in Syria? Government harassment of Greenwald, Poitras, and others for covering the Snowden leaks? The list goes on and on. If we lost just a few of our best 'freedom fighters:' the ACLU, the EFF, and people like Amy Goodman and Glenn Greenwald, my best guess is that the world would start to turn into a different place. I'm not sure if we are fighting enough. [1] https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/does-what-happened-journalist-us-canada-border-herald-darker-trend https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/does-what-happened-jo... [2]https://theintercept.com/2016/12/15/if-donald-trump-is-so-upset-about-iraq-wmd-lies-why-is-he-hiring-john-bolton/ https://theintercept.com/2016/12/15/if-donald-trump-is-so-up...
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  Well, when I saw creeping authoritarianism in action, I started giving a monthly $72 donation to the ACLU. If we all do similarly, they'll have more strength to fight back for our rights. I also just gave part of my holiday bonus to the ADL.
  - wallace_f 10y ago
    That makes me feel good, reading that you do that. I wish I had more financial freedom to support those two and other organizations which fight for liberty, particularly the EFF.

xnull2guest 10y ago

The article overplayed the contrast and underplayed the comparison. China has civil rights organizations parallel to the ACLU, and in America civil rights activists and journalists are routinely finding themselves charged with crimes, in prison or harassed. I myself have been harassed (followed, gaslit, personally surveilled, and threatened) by state police in America, for sharing Snowden documents and their contents. My mail between my relatives and I were opened. All subtle hints and threats: stop being outspoken. Following the state of the law with regard to providers and services in the United States, I think you've overemphasized the capability for companies to fight back, as the pressure from the state is incredible and at every front. Primarily, PR is used to emphasize that businesses are really on consumers' sides: that they'd like to not provide data and access. But in actuality, being a successful company at the scale you need to survive means working hand in hand with the US government. We saw how large ("trusted") brands worked hand-in-hand with government by the Snowden documents and we've watched it slip further since. > I hope Americans don't get cynical enough to discredit that we have more rights and they are worth fighting for, because it could always get far worse. We have the same rights worth fighting for that the Chinese have. Government does not give us rights. The rights are independent of government. Americans and Chinese have the same rights. Both governments are impeding on them. Washington DOES NOT give Americans more rights than the Chinese. Rights have never been something Washington can give. What you are seeing is Washington taking rights, and pointing fingers at the Chinese, telling you that they're taking more. You want to fight for rights? You can't fight the Chinese for your rights. You have to fight Washington for your rights.

adamsea 10y ago
> China has civil rights organizations parallel to the ACLU No, it doesn't, because the ACLU has a degree of power and legitimacy in the US which the Chinese government would not allow to any equivalent organization. The ACLU has actually won cases in court which effected a change in law and/or behavior. > I myself have been harassed (followed, gaslit, personally surveilled, and threatened) by state police in America, for sharing Snowden documents and their contents. My mail between my relatives and I were opened. All subtle hints and threats: stop being outspoken. Without minimizing the wrongness, illegality, or harm those things have done to you, I have to imagine that in China, a) Snowden documents would never have seen the light of day, and, b) If you had attempted to share something like that you would have been imprisoned without trial. As the parent poster said, the difference between some and none is significant. I do agree with the ultimate statement of you post, about fighting for rights.
- xnull2guest 10y ago
  > No, it doesn't, because the ACLU has a degree of power and legitimacy in the US which the Chinese government would not allow to any equivalent organization. The ACLU has actually won cases in court which effected a change in law and/or behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weiquan_lawyers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weiquan_lawyers > I have to imagine that in China... a) Had Washington had its way the documents never would have seen the light of day. They broke international law to ground planes in search of Snowden. They blocked as much of the documents as they could from being shared. They spread rumors about malware on Wikileaks. They worked with the media industry to not cover the contents and to work on the messaging to the American people: "This is bulk collection, not mass surveillance." Their official and public statements on the contents and scope of the programs were repeatedly shown to be false. They passed a law legalizing and expanding authorities and passed this off to the public as their stopping the programs, while the media ran 24/7 news about Caitlyn Jenning. The UK infiltrated the Guardian at gunpoint and destroyed the documents. b) The laws are in place for exactly this. Snowden, had he been caught, would have been in military prison. His lawyers are arguing today the terms of a trial for him to come home, with senior members of our government calling for his execution. The US government under the Obama Justice Department has compromised on a secret jury-less trial in the Virginia legal subsystem (notable for prosecuting National Security cases, and siding with National Security over individual rights). Remember Chelsea Manning's court case? I don't.

digi_owl 10y ago

I suspect USA don't need a great firewall, because so few of the public can read anything but english. In contrast anyone Chinese that are active online effectively has to be capable of understanding both english and Chinese.

zhemao 10y ago
Why would not reading anything other than English matter? There are a large number of English language news sources based outside the US. Even inside the US, there is a wide range of news sources with varying ideologies.
icebraining 10y ago
In contrast anyone Chinese that are active online effectively has to be capable of understanding both english and Chinese. I find that hard to believe. I know it's not true for Portuguese native speakers, and China seems to be even more keen on providing native alternatives to foreign sites.

wallace_f 10y ago

> I hope Americans don't get cynical enough to discredit that we have more rights and they are worth fighting for, because it could always get far worse. That's a really good point--those of us in America are lucky to be here. Do you think people are fighting enough, though? Amy Goodman was nearly thrown in jail just for covering the Dakota Pipeline Protests--what punishment will be handed out in response to that egregious attempt at violating civil rights in America. Right now it looks like: none. Another example: At least one Journalist has been physically detained, searched and had equipment seized for travelling to cover the Dakota Pipeline Protests.^1 What about the fact that the Iraqi government was desperately trying to prove they did not have chemical weapons or weapons of mass destruction, and the Bush administration hid this from the public?^2 Even though that is a proven, factually-substantiated conspiracy, and it is not technically censored, how many Americans would you guess are aware that happened? In my experience, most aren't. What about whistle blower protections? Human rights abuses? Guantanamo? Police brutality? Legalized propaganda? Our actions in Syria? Government harassment of Greenwald, Poitras, and others for covering the Snowden leaks? The list goes on and on. If we lost just a few of our best 'freedom fighters:' the ACLU, the EFF, and people like Amy Goodman and Glenn Greenwald, my best guess is that the world would start to turn into a different place. I'm not sure if we are fighting enough. [1] https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/does-what-happened-journalist-us-canada-border-herald-darker-trend https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/does-what-happened-jo... [2]https://theintercept.com/2016/12/15/if-donald-trump-is-so-upset-about-iraq-wmd-lies-why-is-he-hiring-john-bolton/ https://theintercept.com/2016/12/15/if-donald-trump-is-so-up...

eli_gottlieb 10y ago
Well, when I saw creeping authoritarianism in action, I started giving a monthly $72 donation to the ACLU. If we all do similarly, they'll have more strength to fight back for our rights. I also just gave part of my holiday bonus to the ADL.
- wallace_f 10y ago
  That makes me feel good, reading that you do that. I wish I had more financial freedom to support those two and other organizations which fight for liberty, particularly the EFF.