3 ms·

How is it "universal" if recipients are required to be jobless?

keehun 10y ago
It's a test. Here's what the article says about the motivations behind this test: >> Now, the Finnish government is exploring how to change that calculus, initiating an experiment in a form of social welfare: universal basic income. Early next year, the government plans to randomly select roughly 2,000 unemployed people — from white-collar coders to blue-collar construction workers. It will give them benefits automatically, absent bureaucratic hassle and minus penalties for amassing extra income. >> The government is eager to see what happens next. Will more people pursue jobs or start businesses? How many will stop working and squander their money on vodka? Will those liberated from the time-sucking entanglements of the unemployment system use their freedom to gain education, setting themselves up for promising new careers? These areas of inquiry extend beyond economic policy, into the realm of human nature. Basically, no one knows how humans/societies will react to such a hand-out, and this is trying to figure out if an eventual universal income will be effective. Also, this quote from later in the article: >> Mr. Saloranta has his eyes on a former Nokia employee who is masterly at developing prototypes. He only needs him part time. He could pay 2,000 euros a month (about $2,090). Yet this potential hire is bringing home more than that via his unemployment benefits. >> “It’s more profitable for him to just wait at home for some ideal job,” Mr. Saloranta complains. >> Basic income would fix this, he says: “It would activate many more unemployed people.”
dvdhnt 10y ago
So UBI is fundamentally a safety-net; insurance, if you will. The "universal" quality is that all people will be eligible for UBI. Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. It's sort of like the popular phrase in the U.S. - "everyone is guaranteed the same opportunity but not the same outcome". Thus, while all will have access to UBI, the payout will be determined by individual circumstances. Regarding Finland's program, it's likely they had to choose a group of individuals who were easiest to justify paying UBI under current popular-thought. Therefore, they chose a group already receiving or eligible for unemployment/assistance and argued they were simply replacing one for the other. That is of course just an educated guess on my part. So, yes, UBI itself is in fact universal although the initial rollout, or test, is highly compartmentalized. Edit: As someone pointed out, I'm probably confusing UBI with GMI - Guaranteed Minimum Income. It's starting to feel like we're discussing rules on laying a foundation while others are already fast at work on their fourth and fifth floor, i/e, what's the point of giving everyone a ladder if the roof is consistently growing out of reach?
- applecore 10y ago
  > Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. This isn't UBI either. UBI would simply give everyone the same income without subtracting the difference for extra earned income. You could earn millions and still receive your basic income.
  - cmurf 10y ago
    Yes it's basically a credit. I think all non-business deductions should go away and turn them into fixed credits (vanishing most of them entirely). Right now two homeowners each with $1000 in deductible mortgage interest, have different tax liability reductions if they're at different tax brackets. The one in the higher bracket actually ends up with a greater reduction in tax for the same deduction. And so on.
  - zzalpha 10y ago
    As you define it. I define UBI as having a floor on people's income, where the government ensures everyone is above that floor. So it's universally ensuring everyone had a basic income.
    - kgwgk 10y ago
      Your definition is not the usual one, I think. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income http://basicincome.org/basic-income/faq/#income http://basicincome.org/basic-income/faq/#income
      - zzalpha 10y ago
        If I'm understanding it correctly, what I may be thinking of is partial basic income (as defined by Wikipedia). Maybe.
  - dvdhnt 10y ago
    You're right, I'm thinking of GMI - Guaranteed Minimum Income - as I've seen the two spoken of interchangeably while that doesn't seem to be the case. My fear when comparing the two would be that UBI would, over an extended period of time, put us right back where we started. I say this because UBI would essentially just be moving the starting point, $0/mo in this case, to say $2,000/mo, and that markets would eventually catch up to this resulting in hyper-inflation, i/e $25 gallons of milk. However, since as wikipedia says, "most modern countries have some form of GMI", either I'm being too optimistic about GMI or too pessimistic about UBI. Then again, perhaps the issue evolves into one on taxation, loopholes, etc. since GMI exists and we're still discussing how to "fix" this issue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income

It's a test. Here's what the article says about the motivations behind this test: >> Now, the Finnish government is exploring how to change that calculus, initiating an experiment in a form of social welfare: universal basic income. Early next year, the government plans to randomly select roughly 2,000 unemployed people — from white-collar coders to blue-collar construction workers. It will give them benefits automatically, absent bureaucratic hassle and minus penalties for amassing extra income. >> The government is eager to see what happens next. Will more people pursue jobs or start businesses? How many will stop working and squander their money on vodka? Will those liberated from the time-sucking entanglements of the unemployment system use their freedom to gain education, setting themselves up for promising new careers? These areas of inquiry extend beyond economic policy, into the realm of human nature. Basically, no one knows how humans/societies will react to such a hand-out, and this is trying to figure out if an eventual universal income will be effective. Also, this quote from later in the article: >> Mr. Saloranta has his eyes on a former Nokia employee who is masterly at developing prototypes. He only needs him part time. He could pay 2,000 euros a month (about $2,090). Yet this potential hire is bringing home more than that via his unemployment benefits. >> “It’s more profitable for him to just wait at home for some ideal job,” Mr. Saloranta complains. >> Basic income would fix this, he says: “It would activate many more unemployed people.”

dvdhnt 10y ago

So UBI is fundamentally a safety-net; insurance, if you will. The "universal" quality is that all people will be eligible for UBI. Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. It's sort of like the popular phrase in the U.S. - "everyone is guaranteed the same opportunity but not the same outcome". Thus, while all will have access to UBI, the payout will be determined by individual circumstances. Regarding Finland's program, it's likely they had to choose a group of individuals who were easiest to justify paying UBI under current popular-thought. Therefore, they chose a group already receiving or eligible for unemployment/assistance and argued they were simply replacing one for the other. That is of course just an educated guess on my part. So, yes, UBI itself is in fact universal although the initial rollout, or test, is highly compartmentalized. Edit: As someone pointed out, I'm probably confusing UBI with GMI - Guaranteed Minimum Income. It's starting to feel like we're discussing rules on laying a foundation while others are already fast at work on their fourth and fifth floor, i/e, what's the point of giving everyone a ladder if the roof is consistently growing out of reach?

applecore 10y ago
> Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. This isn't UBI either. UBI would simply give everyone the same income without subtracting the difference for extra earned income. You could earn millions and still receive your basic income.
- cmurf 10y ago
  Yes it's basically a credit. I think all non-business deductions should go away and turn them into fixed credits (vanishing most of them entirely). Right now two homeowners each with $1000 in deductible mortgage interest, have different tax liability reductions if they're at different tax brackets. The one in the higher bracket actually ends up with a greater reduction in tax for the same deduction. And so on.
- zzalpha 10y ago
  As you define it. I define UBI as having a floor on people's income, where the government ensures everyone is above that floor. So it's universally ensuring everyone had a basic income.
  - kgwgk 10y ago
    Your definition is not the usual one, I think. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income http://basicincome.org/basic-income/faq/#income http://basicincome.org/basic-income/faq/#income
    - zzalpha 10y ago
      If I'm understanding it correctly, what I may be thinking of is partial basic income (as defined by Wikipedia). Maybe.
- dvdhnt 10y ago
  You're right, I'm thinking of GMI - Guaranteed Minimum Income - as I've seen the two spoken of interchangeably while that doesn't seem to be the case. My fear when comparing the two would be that UBI would, over an extended period of time, put us right back where we started. I say this because UBI would essentially just be moving the starting point, $0/mo in this case, to say $2,000/mo, and that markets would eventually catch up to this resulting in hyper-inflation, i/e $25 gallons of milk. However, since as wikipedia says, "most modern countries have some form of GMI", either I'm being too optimistic about GMI or too pessimistic about UBI. Then again, perhaps the issue evolves into one on taxation, loopholes, etc. since GMI exists and we're still discussing how to "fix" this issue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income