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San Francisco is almost unique in this. Of the entire set of cities in the world I have seen, none have a problem like this on a comparable scale. Perhaps it'

San Francisco is almost unique in this. Of the entire set of cities in the world I have seen, none have a problem like this on a comparable scale. Perhaps it's more useful to ask what led to this situation in this one city, and look for constructive things to do to remedy it. It's certainly possible to have open, public transit that is clean and functional. Walk around Berlin right now and count how many "screening" checkpoints their are in the train stations. Spoiler: there aren't even doors on all the entrances. Somehow, as if by magic, trains are clean and run on time. The strongest smell is from the food vendors in the attached mall. Civil services are possible. And they certainly don't require any draconian "screening" processes.

closeparen 10y ago
>Walk around Berlin right now Transit policy can't create the Berlin transit system. Germany got it by building the constellation of welfare, social services, healthcare, eduction, labor laws, and tenant protection that keeps people's lives on track (or puts them back) long before they've fallen to the point of shitting into subway escalators. The American electorate is quite far from even wanting these things. It's going to be a long climb to get them implemented and working. We will not be preventing destitution anytime soon, and the shit on the streets of temperate, tolerant cities like SF is going to get far, far worse before it gets better.
- pyrale 10y ago
  You're effectively asking to limit the incentives for people to work on these problems.
  - closeparen 10y ago
    Do you think Bay Area commuters are not liberal enough, and would become more liberal after breathing in enough piss? The barriers to these policies do not appear to come from insufficently motivated city dwellers, but from rural areas and small towns. And maybe from people who have such extreme wealth that they can walk to work.
    - pyrale 10y ago
      I don't pretend to have a solution to your problems, i merely point a problem in your solution. Also the fact that your society grows a divide such that basic health concerns can't be solved démocratically sounds like a root cause to your piss problem.
iamdave 10y ago
San Francisco is almost unique in this So when are you flying to Austin? I'd like to, among other things take you on a trip to 7th and Red River, and provide you with an oral history of (also among other things) CapMetro, Metrorail and the numerous mass transit solutions shot down by the voters who THEMSELVES called for a referendum vote on options for mass transit. TWICE. Or we can go to a little town called Spartanburg South Carolina. Or I could tell you the tale of Indianapolis' almost hilariously doomed transit improvement efforts in the 90's (hilariously in the way it happened, not that it happened so much all). My point: SF isn't unique in this regard. Not by a long shot. Their problems may be exacerbated by many other compounding factors comparatively with other cities...but I agree with the comment you've replied to: here are built in logic ladders constructed over years of subtle social conditioning and assumptions made about the cross section of mass transit and public service that make for some interesting outcomes at the municipal level. See also: MARTA.
- heavenlyhash 10y ago
  I concede then. It's not unique (and indeed, Austin is absent from my experiences). I like the way you phrase this though: "logic ladders" of "years of social conditioning and assumptions". There are a lot of odd assumptions about mass transit and public service floating around.
Fnoord 10y ago
> Walk around Berlin right now and count how many "screening" checkpoints their are in the train stations. Spoiler: there aren't even doors on all the entrances. Somehow, as if by magic, trains are clean and run on time. The strongest smell is from the food vendors in the attached mall. Times have changed! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Zoologischer_Garten_railway_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Zoologischer_Garten_rai... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiane_F._%E2%80%93_We_Children_from_Bahnhof_Zoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiane_F._%E2%80%93_We_Chi... "Cinematography is bleak and dreary, depicting a dilapidated, working-class Berlin with rundown structures and dirty, blighted backdrops. Modern Berlin is very different and most of the landmarks from the movie (the station, the Bülow street stalls, the Sound discothèque) have either been demolished or completely remodeled." "Most of the extras at the railway station and at the Sound club were actual junkies, prostitutes and low-lifes rounded up by producers just for the crowd scenes. In the scene where Christiane runs through the alleys of the station to find Babsi, the camera lingers on several terminal junkies leaning against the walls of the underpass. In a 2011 interview, Thomas Haustein, who plays Detlev and was still in school at the time, recalls how terrified he felt being surrounded by all those real-life addicts, but that he was able to successfully copy their behaviour for his character."
- cguess 10y ago
  Yea, Berlin was different in 1981 during the cold war where it was, for all intents and purposes, completely landlocked within East Germany and was economically stagnant. The DB, while not my favorite train system in the world, runs extremely well.
- heavenlyhash 10y ago
  I was at the Zoologischer Garten station last night. Not much to say except frankly it's far cleaner than the SF trains the GP is talking about. (I was also in SF civic center station less than two months ago, and thus feel qualified to make this statement as a first person observer.) Berlin certainly has its own aesthetic. Berliners seem to take graffiti incredibly seriously, for example (lettering three stories high on the top floors of a 15 story building? "Sure, why not" is apparently the thinking). But hordes of junkies? Do I feel in danger? Absolutely not.

closeparen 10y ago

>Walk around Berlin right now Transit policy can't create the Berlin transit system. Germany got it by building the constellation of welfare, social services, healthcare, eduction, labor laws, and tenant protection that keeps people's lives on track (or puts them back) long before they've fallen to the point of shitting into subway escalators. The American electorate is quite far from even wanting these things. It's going to be a long climb to get them implemented and working. We will not be preventing destitution anytime soon, and the shit on the streets of temperate, tolerant cities like SF is going to get far, far worse before it gets better.

pyrale 10y ago
You're effectively asking to limit the incentives for people to work on these problems.
- closeparen 10y ago
  Do you think Bay Area commuters are not liberal enough, and would become more liberal after breathing in enough piss? The barriers to these policies do not appear to come from insufficently motivated city dwellers, but from rural areas and small towns. And maybe from people who have such extreme wealth that they can walk to work.
  - pyrale 10y ago
    I don't pretend to have a solution to your problems, i merely point a problem in your solution. Also the fact that your society grows a divide such that basic health concerns can't be solved démocratically sounds like a root cause to your piss problem.

iamdave 10y ago

San Francisco is almost unique in this So when are you flying to Austin? I'd like to, among other things take you on a trip to 7th and Red River, and provide you with an oral history of (also among other things) CapMetro, Metrorail and the numerous mass transit solutions shot down by the voters who THEMSELVES called for a referendum vote on options for mass transit. TWICE. Or we can go to a little town called Spartanburg South Carolina. Or I could tell you the tale of Indianapolis' almost hilariously doomed transit improvement efforts in the 90's (hilariously in the way it happened, not that it happened so much all). My point: SF isn't unique in this regard. Not by a long shot. Their problems may be exacerbated by many other compounding factors comparatively with other cities...but I agree with the comment you've replied to: here are built in logic ladders constructed over years of subtle social conditioning and assumptions made about the cross section of mass transit and public service that make for some interesting outcomes at the municipal level. See also: MARTA.

heavenlyhash 10y ago
I concede then. It's not unique (and indeed, Austin is absent from my experiences). I like the way you phrase this though: "logic ladders" of "years of social conditioning and assumptions". There are a lot of odd assumptions about mass transit and public service floating around.

Fnoord 10y ago

> Walk around Berlin right now and count how many "screening" checkpoints their are in the train stations. Spoiler: there aren't even doors on all the entrances. Somehow, as if by magic, trains are clean and run on time. The strongest smell is from the food vendors in the attached mall. Times have changed! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Zoologischer_Garten_railway_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Zoologischer_Garten_rai... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiane_F._%E2%80%93_We_Children_from_Bahnhof_Zoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiane_F._%E2%80%93_We_Chi... "Cinematography is bleak and dreary, depicting a dilapidated, working-class Berlin with rundown structures and dirty, blighted backdrops. Modern Berlin is very different and most of the landmarks from the movie (the station, the Bülow street stalls, the Sound discothèque) have either been demolished or completely remodeled." "Most of the extras at the railway station and at the Sound club were actual junkies, prostitutes and low-lifes rounded up by producers just for the crowd scenes. In the scene where Christiane runs through the alleys of the station to find Babsi, the camera lingers on several terminal junkies leaning against the walls of the underpass. In a 2011 interview, Thomas Haustein, who plays Detlev and was still in school at the time, recalls how terrified he felt being surrounded by all those real-life addicts, but that he was able to successfully copy their behaviour for his character."

cguess 10y ago
Yea, Berlin was different in 1981 during the cold war where it was, for all intents and purposes, completely landlocked within East Germany and was economically stagnant. The DB, while not my favorite train system in the world, runs extremely well.
heavenlyhash 10y ago
I was at the Zoologischer Garten station last night. Not much to say except frankly it's far cleaner than the SF trains the GP is talking about. (I was also in SF civic center station less than two months ago, and thus feel qualified to make this statement as a first person observer.) Berlin certainly has its own aesthetic. Berliners seem to take graffiti incredibly seriously, for example (lettering three stories high on the top floors of a 15 story building? "Sure, why not" is apparently the thinking). But hordes of junkies? Do I feel in danger? Absolutely not.