6 ms·

google, facebook, amazon?

by user837387 10y ago

rahrahrah 10y ago
Oh really? Those companies each have 100m-worth of crypto-breaking hardware? Ok then.
- blackflame7000 10y ago
  Yea pretty sure google, facebook, and amazon servers are busy, you know, running google, facebook, and amazon. Business can't afford to have resources like that NSA sitting around for test. The government throws out more hardware in a day then most business buy in a year. Literally thousands of perfectly good i7/i5s being destroyed because they don't have up to date TPM / secure boot stuff
  - mabbo 10y ago
    Each of those companies needs enough hardware to handle their highest expected loads. But most of the time, they aren't near their peak needs, leaving a lot of hosts sitting idle. AWS and other cloud providers face the same situation, but to another order of magnitude. These leftovers would be enough to match what the NSA has.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - robotresearcher 10y ago
      How do you know?
    - iamthepieman 10y ago
      This is not true
    - petre 10y ago
      > These leftovers would be enough to match what the NSA has. They still need power to run theese, space to store them. All of that costs money. Why woold a private org break crypto if it has nothing to gain from it? And besides, people willingly give their data to Google, Facebook, Amazon. Why would theese orgs need to crack anything at all?
      - clort 10y ago
        > All of that costs money. They have money http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/11/technology/overseas-cash-tech/ (Your other points may or may not be valid)
      - mabbo 10y ago
        You're missing the point- the hosts are already there, powered but sitting idle. They are the reserve computing capacity. They must be there for when load increases. This is why AWS exists, because Amazon needed to have 4X capacity on cyber Monday, but not the rest of the year. I'm not saying there is any benefit to google cracking VPNs, but simply that they could, that they are an organization with enough hardware to do it.
        blackflame7000 10y ago
        I think you are forgetting the fact that your standard run of the mill xeons and tesla's in a typical server farm are still far slower than custom hardware accelerated circuits with no clock rate specifically designed for cracking a specific encryption system. There isn't really a justifiable commercial reason to need them on that scale at present.
  - dsfyu404ed 10y ago
    >The government throws out more hardware in a day then most business buy in a year. Literally thousands of perfectly good i7/i5s being destroyed because they don't have up to date TPM / secure boot stuff With a handful of exceptions you're mostly wrong. It's hard for the gov to throw things away, or even sell them to a 3rd party at scale. There's proper channels for getting rid of anything that isn't literally trash. Government being government the people who run those channels really don't like when they're not used. Especially in defense. Google "DMRO".
    - blackflame7000 10y ago
      I work for spawar. Every single machine without TPM and secure boot is being destroyed. I wasn't even allowed to take spare extra ram as it all goes to the shredder.
cmdrfred 10y ago
They already have the keys to the kingdom that would be pointless.
- loup-vaillant 10y ago
  By the way, those keys (or at least the content they protect) are subpoenaed on a regular basis, so…
tn13 10y ago
Google, Facebook, amazon machines are busy making money for them so they can pay salaries to their employees. Unlike the chums at NSA they cant steal money from your pocket in the name of fare share.
gragas 10y ago
you're an idiot if you think google, facebook, and amazon are breaking state-of-the-art crypto to steal your information
- notyourwork 10y ago
  They implied one of those has the machines, not the motivation or intended desire to do so. Learn to read before you start trying to call someone an idiot.
loup-vaillant 10y ago
Crypto-breaking hardware is very different from your average server farm. The best crypto-breaking algorithms are parallel, and you need to spend a few hundred million dollars on a suitable ASIC setup to brute force 128 bits symmetric crypto. https://cr.yp.to/snuffle/bruteforce-20050425.pdf https://cr.yp.to/snuffle/bruteforce-20050425.pdf While the likes of Google Amazon and Facebooks may have that much hardware, they most certainly don't have that much crypto breaking hardware.
- cryptarch 10y ago
  So... very large GPU rigs? The kind you use for processing images and doing machine learning? The kinda stuff that Google, Amazon and Facebook all do, on a massive scale?
  - tlb 10y ago
    No, not GPUs. GPUs are good at floating point vector math, not the bit shuffling operations that dominate the runtime of symmetric encryption or hashing. Custom ASICs specialized for crypto computations get orders of magnitude better power efficiency than GPUs at cracking. For instance, in bitcoin mining (dominated by the SHA-256 calculation), the best GPUs get 0.013 MH/J while current ASICs get 10182 MH/J [0], so almost a million times more work per unit of energy. [0] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
    - blackflame7000 10y ago
      Yea with FPGAs you literally have the circuits change to the software spec which is far and away more efficient in terms of hashes per kwh

google, facebook, amazon?

rahrahrah 10y ago

Oh really? Those companies each have 100m-worth of crypto-breaking hardware? Ok then.

blackflame7000 10y ago
Yea pretty sure google, facebook, and amazon servers are busy, you know, running google, facebook, and amazon. Business can't afford to have resources like that NSA sitting around for test. The government throws out more hardware in a day then most business buy in a year. Literally thousands of perfectly good i7/i5s being destroyed because they don't have up to date TPM / secure boot stuff
- mabbo 10y ago
  Each of those companies needs enough hardware to handle their highest expected loads. But most of the time, they aren't near their peak needs, leaving a lot of hosts sitting idle. AWS and other cloud providers face the same situation, but to another order of magnitude. These leftovers would be enough to match what the NSA has.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - robotresearcher 10y ago
    How do you know?
  - iamthepieman 10y ago
    This is not true
  - petre 10y ago
    > These leftovers would be enough to match what the NSA has. They still need power to run theese, space to store them. All of that costs money. Why woold a private org break crypto if it has nothing to gain from it? And besides, people willingly give their data to Google, Facebook, Amazon. Why would theese orgs need to crack anything at all?
    - clort 10y ago
      > All of that costs money. They have money http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/11/technology/overseas-cash-tech/ (Your other points may or may not be valid)
    - mabbo 10y ago
      You're missing the point- the hosts are already there, powered but sitting idle. They are the reserve computing capacity. They must be there for when load increases. This is why AWS exists, because Amazon needed to have 4X capacity on cyber Monday, but not the rest of the year. I'm not saying there is any benefit to google cracking VPNs, but simply that they could, that they are an organization with enough hardware to do it.
      - blackflame7000 10y ago
        I think you are forgetting the fact that your standard run of the mill xeons and tesla's in a typical server farm are still far slower than custom hardware accelerated circuits with no clock rate specifically designed for cracking a specific encryption system. There isn't really a justifiable commercial reason to need them on that scale at present.
- dsfyu404ed 10y ago
  >The government throws out more hardware in a day then most business buy in a year. Literally thousands of perfectly good i7/i5s being destroyed because they don't have up to date TPM / secure boot stuff With a handful of exceptions you're mostly wrong. It's hard for the gov to throw things away, or even sell them to a 3rd party at scale. There's proper channels for getting rid of anything that isn't literally trash. Government being government the people who run those channels really don't like when they're not used. Especially in defense. Google "DMRO".
  - blackflame7000 10y ago
    I work for spawar. Every single machine without TPM and secure boot is being destroyed. I wasn't even allowed to take spare extra ram as it all goes to the shredder.

cmdrfred 10y ago

They already have the keys to the kingdom that would be pointless.

loup-vaillant 10y ago
By the way, those keys (or at least the content they protect) are subpoenaed on a regular basis, so…

tn13 10y ago

Google, Facebook, amazon machines are busy making money for them so they can pay salaries to their employees. Unlike the chums at NSA they cant steal money from your pocket in the name of fare share.

gragas 10y ago

you're an idiot if you think google, facebook, and amazon are breaking state-of-the-art crypto to steal your information

notyourwork 10y ago
They implied one of those has the machines, not the motivation or intended desire to do so. Learn to read before you start trying to call someone an idiot.

loup-vaillant 10y ago

Crypto-breaking hardware is very different from your average server farm. The best crypto-breaking algorithms are parallel, and you need to spend a few hundred million dollars on a suitable ASIC setup to brute force 128 bits symmetric crypto. https://cr.yp.to/snuffle/bruteforce-20050425.pdf https://cr.yp.to/snuffle/bruteforce-20050425.pdf While the likes of Google Amazon and Facebooks may have that much hardware, they most certainly don't have that much crypto breaking hardware.

cryptarch 10y ago
So... very large GPU rigs? The kind you use for processing images and doing machine learning? The kinda stuff that Google, Amazon and Facebook all do, on a massive scale?
- tlb 10y ago
  No, not GPUs. GPUs are good at floating point vector math, not the bit shuffling operations that dominate the runtime of symmetric encryption or hashing. Custom ASICs specialized for crypto computations get orders of magnitude better power efficiency than GPUs at cracking. For instance, in bitcoin mining (dominated by the SHA-256 calculation), the best GPUs get 0.013 MH/J while current ASICs get 10182 MH/J [0], so almost a million times more work per unit of energy. [0] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
  - blackflame7000 10y ago
    Yea with FPGAs you literally have the circuits change to the software spec which is far and away more efficient in terms of hashes per kwh