5 ms·

Here's a little example what happened to me: I interviewed with a company. Naturally they asked for my side projects which I showed them. We talked about techn

by dvcrn 10y ago

Here's a little example what happened to me: I interviewed with a company. Naturally they asked for my side projects which I showed them. We talked about technical challenges, scaling, interesting bits of codes - all these kind of things. They were really excited. I passed the interviews and got the job. Fast forward a couple month, still working on my side projects, some of which started generating a couple hundred bucks a month. My boss started asking me to stop any side projects and put all my time thinking about the company instead. I refused and said that I am 100% there during my work hours but what I do in my private time is not related and even the reason why I got this job in the first place. My boss didn't like that at all and even tried to figure the exact times out when I would work on private stuff to hold it against me. I eventually quit. If your company wants to see side projects but dislikes the idea of you actually working on them after starting, you are doing something wrong.

Tempest1981 10y ago
Good point. Seems like the company's attitude is: "show us you're passionate and have side-projects, but of course, once you work for us, we want all of that passion focused strictly on us."
wfunction 10y ago
> If your company wants to see side projects but dislikes the idea of you actually working on them after starting, you are doing something wrong. My impression was they generally want to see side projects for newbies/recent graduates, i.e. stuff the applicant would have been working on during college or something. Not stuff the applicant was doing on the "side" during his/her previous years of employment. Am I totally wrong here?
- dvcrn 10y ago
  > Not stuff the applicant was doing on the "side" during his/her previous years of employment. Am I totally wrong here? Hmm, the way I see it is that side projects usually demonstrate that you have a passion for code outside of your work as well. From a company perspective I would probably also hire someone who is using his free time to advance his knowledge since some of that stuff he is using/learning could also become useful for the company at some point. I personally don't mean any harm with my projects. I just really like coding, creating things and learning more (my way of learning also being to experiment/build something with technology X). The field is so broad and there are so many interesting things to learn about with new ones getting released almost weekly.
  - TAForObvReasons 10y ago
    > side projects usually demonstrate that you have a passion for code outside of your work In other industries, these are called "portfolios" or "writing samples". It's not just about showing a passion; it's your chance to make a piece of work that represents your best abilities and judgments. When I interview candidates I find it easier and more constructive to ask design questions about the side projects than to contrive some hypothetical scenario. IMHO the alternative, where you ask people to write code under the pressure of an interview setting, is far less informative.
    - dasil003 10y ago
      I know what you mean, but it's also easier to fake. I've definitely run into the situation where someone's projects look good, but then they are terrible on the job. I'm left to conclude they were pairing with someone more knowledgeable or cloning some idea or maybe has spent years preparing to tackle that one problem and are not good in general problem solving. Not saying you won't get a lot of false negatives with high-pressure on-site coding or whiteboarding, but if done correctly I think it's probably the most signal you can get for the least time. Granted it requires good judgement from the interviewer, and a lot of candidates to calibrate. It's also unfair to candidates who are easily rattled, and biased towards candidates who have time to do a lot of preparation. In the past I have preferred contract-to-hire as the gold standard if that works for a candidate, but that only works if the pipeline is small.
      - dj-wonk 10y ago
        I also think that contract-to-hire is a good option to consider. Vetting a small, unknown company requires time and effort.
- ____nope 10y ago
  It probably depends on the company but I think this is right. If I interview someone with little working experience it definitely helps that they have some work on Github. But it would be strange to reject a senior candidate with a great resume who did very well in the technical interview just because they didn't have anything on Github.
- dasil003 10y ago
  Anecdata: I'm currently in the middle of interviewing with a wide slate of mid-size SV companies, and not one has asked for code samples. It's all a mix of whiteboarding, on-site coding, phone-screen coding, or take-home coding. So at least for 15-year veterans it does not really seem to be much of a thing. Although I do secretly wish they would discover my 4-digit GitHub user id, that's gotta be worth some kinda programmer-cred right?
x0x0 10y ago
I've been penalized for showing side projects and kaggle entries that weren't production quality code. No shit it's not production code, because it's not going into production. I quit working on them when I stopped learning, and that was well before code polishing.
- TAForObvReasons 10y ago
  To be completely fair, if you are showing a project you have done, it should be a good representation of your abilities. Treat it like how other industries treat "portfolios" or "writing samples".
  - Tempest1981 10y ago
    Seems like a lose-lose: - If you don't show side-projects, you don't have passion - If you do show prototype-quality side-projects, you aren't skilled - If you do show production-quality side-projects, you aren't sufficiently focused on your daytime job.
    - divbit 10y ago
      Maybe a good balance is to show a very small number of production-quality side-projects: like just pick your top 1-2 things? (Just brainstorming)
  - x0x0 10y ago
    That's a backdoor work sample. I personally don't do work samples unless paid...
derekp7 10y ago
So if you have any other interests, such as rebuilding old cars, would that boss still have a problem with it? That is the thing I don't get, is how some companies see a big difference between regular hobbies and programing related hobbies.
- ne01 10y ago
  I only know a few companies that promote a healthy work/life ratio. I believe that on average non-tech companies treat their employees better and give them more right and freedom. With non-tech companies you usually sell your time. But with tech companies you sell your brain power, if your side projects affect your brain contribution to that company for sure they don't want that. So silly of them, I always say this. Companies should stop treating their employees as assets. And let me say again, there are successful tech companies run by smart people that don't do this! And most employees including the founders are happier because of it. At SunSed we believe that we should treat business like a passionate music band — making money is not the ultimate goal — the ultimate goal is to see people enjoying your music while you enjoy playing!
- dandv 10y ago
  [Google owns any IP you develop, even on your own time](http://startups.stackexchange.com/questions/7822/working-legally-on-a-side-project-while-employed-by-google-in-california http://startups.stackexchange.com/questions/7822/working-leg...), and you can't easily work on those interview-worthy side projects after you get hired.
  - eridius 10y ago
    That's not necessarily true. Companies certainly like to advocate for the idea that they automatically own any work you do that's relevant to any of their business interests, even if that work isn't relevant to your particular job. But that doesn't mean it'll hold up in court. Just a couple of days ago I was reading something about how courts regularly side with employees instead of employers in disputes like this, how they tend to interpret that as only applying to work relevant to the employee's job and not to other parts of the company. Unfortunately I don't remember where I was reading that, so I can't go find it again. Of course, take this with a massive grain of salt. I'd certainly prefer not to have to go to court to try and figure out if this is actually true.
krishicks 10y ago
You might find this post by Joel Spolsky a good read: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr...
otakucode 10y ago
It depends on your point of view. The boss wants the most sophisticated talent he can get, and he doesn't want to pay anything for it. Every penny he pays, and every second of your life he doesn't get for it, is a failure in his eyes. Since the 1980s, employment has become a game. Employers don't like it if you realize this and play them right back, of course, but there's not really any other option. Their viewpoint is dominant and essentially universal. In response to monumental productivity multiplication due to technology, they froze wages, destroyed pensions, cut benefits, and extended the work week. They believe if an employee becomes irreplaceable, they have become expendable. Keeping employees dispensable is weighed as far more important than keeping skilled talent. Read books written by managers for managers. Their actions aren't random or stupid, most people just don't understand their reasoning. And if you only get one tattoo in your life, I highly recommend this centuries-old quote from The Rubiyat of Omar Khayaam: "Make game of that which makes as much of thee."
- IndianAstronaut 10y ago
  I thought it was me. But now I see each job as a place where I grow my skills. I actively pick projects where I gain more technical skolls over those where I develop internal company knowledge.
- summadat 10y ago
  "fuck the game, don't let the game fuck you"
- RCortex 10y ago
  Do you have any recommendations for books for managers written by managers? The last book I skimmed on this topic was "The Alliance," by some people at linkedIn. According to one of the reviews on amazon it mainly just talks about industry-wide blacklists for employees if they leave their jobs for a better one.
- dasil003 10y ago
  I think this game is much more openly recognized in SV without too much cynicism. The average tenure is probably around 3 years, and people move between companies often. This serves both the employee by diversifying their skillset, and it serves companies by facilitating knowledge transfer for certain techniques, particularly around scaling and operations for larger tech companies that individuals can't get through mere education or even small-scale work. Consider that we openly talk about Bus Factor as a way of explicitly quantifying the indispensability of certain people; but the solution is not to get rid of them, it's just to train more people on those aspects. Of course there's still some amount of Machiavellian maneuvering, but at least while talent is thin on the ground employees still have enough leverage not to get screwed—not as badly as most non-unionized employees anyway.

by dvcrn 10y ago

Tempest1981 10y ago

Good point. Seems like the company's attitude is: "show us you're passionate and have side-projects, but of course, once you work for us, we want all of that passion focused strictly on us."

wfunction 10y ago

> If your company wants to see side projects but dislikes the idea of you actually working on them after starting, you are doing something wrong. My impression was they generally want to see side projects for newbies/recent graduates, i.e. stuff the applicant would have been working on during college or something. Not stuff the applicant was doing on the "side" during his/her previous years of employment. Am I totally wrong here?

dvcrn 10y ago
> Not stuff the applicant was doing on the "side" during his/her previous years of employment. Am I totally wrong here? Hmm, the way I see it is that side projects usually demonstrate that you have a passion for code outside of your work as well. From a company perspective I would probably also hire someone who is using his free time to advance his knowledge since some of that stuff he is using/learning could also become useful for the company at some point. I personally don't mean any harm with my projects. I just really like coding, creating things and learning more (my way of learning also being to experiment/build something with technology X). The field is so broad and there are so many interesting things to learn about with new ones getting released almost weekly.
- TAForObvReasons 10y ago
  > side projects usually demonstrate that you have a passion for code outside of your work In other industries, these are called "portfolios" or "writing samples". It's not just about showing a passion; it's your chance to make a piece of work that represents your best abilities and judgments. When I interview candidates I find it easier and more constructive to ask design questions about the side projects than to contrive some hypothetical scenario. IMHO the alternative, where you ask people to write code under the pressure of an interview setting, is far less informative.
  - dasil003 10y ago
    I know what you mean, but it's also easier to fake. I've definitely run into the situation where someone's projects look good, but then they are terrible on the job. I'm left to conclude they were pairing with someone more knowledgeable or cloning some idea or maybe has spent years preparing to tackle that one problem and are not good in general problem solving. Not saying you won't get a lot of false negatives with high-pressure on-site coding or whiteboarding, but if done correctly I think it's probably the most signal you can get for the least time. Granted it requires good judgement from the interviewer, and a lot of candidates to calibrate. It's also unfair to candidates who are easily rattled, and biased towards candidates who have time to do a lot of preparation. In the past I have preferred contract-to-hire as the gold standard if that works for a candidate, but that only works if the pipeline is small.
    - dj-wonk 10y ago
      I also think that contract-to-hire is a good option to consider. Vetting a small, unknown company requires time and effort.
____nope 10y ago
It probably depends on the company but I think this is right. If I interview someone with little working experience it definitely helps that they have some work on Github. But it would be strange to reject a senior candidate with a great resume who did very well in the technical interview just because they didn't have anything on Github.
dasil003 10y ago
Anecdata: I'm currently in the middle of interviewing with a wide slate of mid-size SV companies, and not one has asked for code samples. It's all a mix of whiteboarding, on-site coding, phone-screen coding, or take-home coding. So at least for 15-year veterans it does not really seem to be much of a thing. Although I do secretly wish they would discover my 4-digit GitHub user id, that's gotta be worth some kinda programmer-cred right?

x0x0 10y ago

I've been penalized for showing side projects and kaggle entries that weren't production quality code. No shit it's not production code, because it's not going into production. I quit working on them when I stopped learning, and that was well before code polishing.

TAForObvReasons 10y ago
To be completely fair, if you are showing a project you have done, it should be a good representation of your abilities. Treat it like how other industries treat "portfolios" or "writing samples".
- Tempest1981 10y ago
  Seems like a lose-lose: - If you don't show side-projects, you don't have passion - If you do show prototype-quality side-projects, you aren't skilled - If you do show production-quality side-projects, you aren't sufficiently focused on your daytime job.
  - divbit 10y ago
    Maybe a good balance is to show a very small number of production-quality side-projects: like just pick your top 1-2 things? (Just brainstorming)
- x0x0 10y ago
  That's a backdoor work sample. I personally don't do work samples unless paid...

derekp7 10y ago

So if you have any other interests, such as rebuilding old cars, would that boss still have a problem with it? That is the thing I don't get, is how some companies see a big difference between regular hobbies and programing related hobbies.

ne01 10y ago
I only know a few companies that promote a healthy work/life ratio. I believe that on average non-tech companies treat their employees better and give them more right and freedom. With non-tech companies you usually sell your time. But with tech companies you sell your brain power, if your side projects affect your brain contribution to that company for sure they don't want that. So silly of them, I always say this. Companies should stop treating their employees as assets. And let me say again, there are successful tech companies run by smart people that don't do this! And most employees including the founders are happier because of it. At SunSed we believe that we should treat business like a passionate music band — making money is not the ultimate goal — the ultimate goal is to see people enjoying your music while you enjoy playing!
dandv 10y ago
[Google owns any IP you develop, even on your own time](http://startups.stackexchange.com/questions/7822/working-legally-on-a-side-project-while-employed-by-google-in-california http://startups.stackexchange.com/questions/7822/working-leg...), and you can't easily work on those interview-worthy side projects after you get hired.
- eridius 10y ago
  That's not necessarily true. Companies certainly like to advocate for the idea that they automatically own any work you do that's relevant to any of their business interests, even if that work isn't relevant to your particular job. But that doesn't mean it'll hold up in court. Just a couple of days ago I was reading something about how courts regularly side with employees instead of employers in disputes like this, how they tend to interpret that as only applying to work relevant to the employee's job and not to other parts of the company. Unfortunately I don't remember where I was reading that, so I can't go find it again. Of course, take this with a massive grain of salt. I'd certainly prefer not to have to go to court to try and figure out if this is actually true.

krishicks 10y ago

You might find this post by Joel Spolsky a good read: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr...

otakucode 10y ago

It depends on your point of view. The boss wants the most sophisticated talent he can get, and he doesn't want to pay anything for it. Every penny he pays, and every second of your life he doesn't get for it, is a failure in his eyes. Since the 1980s, employment has become a game. Employers don't like it if you realize this and play them right back, of course, but there's not really any other option. Their viewpoint is dominant and essentially universal. In response to monumental productivity multiplication due to technology, they froze wages, destroyed pensions, cut benefits, and extended the work week. They believe if an employee becomes irreplaceable, they have become expendable. Keeping employees dispensable is weighed as far more important than keeping skilled talent. Read books written by managers for managers. Their actions aren't random or stupid, most people just don't understand their reasoning. And if you only get one tattoo in your life, I highly recommend this centuries-old quote from The Rubiyat of Omar Khayaam: "Make game of that which makes as much of thee."

IndianAstronaut 10y ago
I thought it was me. But now I see each job as a place where I grow my skills. I actively pick projects where I gain more technical skolls over those where I develop internal company knowledge.
summadat 10y ago
"fuck the game, don't let the game fuck you"
RCortex 10y ago
Do you have any recommendations for books for managers written by managers? The last book I skimmed on this topic was "The Alliance," by some people at linkedIn. According to one of the reviews on amazon it mainly just talks about industry-wide blacklists for employees if they leave their jobs for a better one.
dasil003 10y ago
I think this game is much more openly recognized in SV without too much cynicism. The average tenure is probably around 3 years, and people move between companies often. This serves both the employee by diversifying their skillset, and it serves companies by facilitating knowledge transfer for certain techniques, particularly around scaling and operations for larger tech companies that individuals can't get through mere education or even small-scale work. Consider that we openly talk about Bus Factor as a way of explicitly quantifying the indispensability of certain people; but the solution is not to get rid of them, it's just to train more people on those aspects. Of course there's still some amount of Machiavellian maneuvering, but at least while talent is thin on the ground employees still have enough leverage not to get screwed—not as badly as most non-unionized employees anyway.