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Begin rambling brainstorm: I am curious about transport efficiency comparisons of trains/rail versus automobiles versus buses. Public sectors can miss out on in

by dpflan 10y ago

Begin rambling brainstorm: I am curious about transport efficiency comparisons of trains/rail versus automobiles versus buses. Public sectors can miss out on interest in investment in infrastructure as Uber/ride-sharing is seen as an acceptable substitute good for public transit. But once a private entity has autonomous vehicles and even more efficient system, cities could tax the private entities for use of their transit infrastructure, e.g. roads. Could that mean then once private companies dominate the transportation market and raises prices, that cities then have the final card to play to either allow a company to be used in their city or not? Then they can create more efficient public systems or subsidized ride-sharing? Sure, citizens may be upset if they don't have Uber/riding sharing because of public sector decisions, but Uber would be upset about not getting revenue. I am just curious about others' thoughts about the big picture. Are cities doomed to privatized transportation and further inequality creation?

danjoc 10y ago
The natural progression is car -> bus -> train. The Uber thing is now making congestion really bad where I live too. There's a town in New Jersey[1] that is opting for Uber instead of building a parking structure. Even though that is replacing cars with other cars, it still roughly doubles congestion; Ubers leave empty. More cars clogging the roads is bad for timely transportation and bad for the environment. Not just green house gasses, but motor oil, tires, litter. It's really unfortunate. [1] http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/3/13147680/uber-new-jersey-free-ride-parking-lot-train-commute http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/3/13147680/uber-new-jersey-f...
pchristensen 10y ago
For cities, geometry is still the limiting factor. See http://humantransit.org/2012/09/the-photo-that-explains-almost-everything.html http://humantransit.org/2012/09/the-photo-that-explains-almo... "The scarcity of space per person is part of the very definition of a city, as distinct from suburbia or rural area, so the efficiency with which transport options use that space will always be the paramount issue."
maverick_iceman 10y ago
Why privatized transportation would necessarily be a bad thing if it provides fast, comfortable journeys at a reasonable price? Of course if you're ideologically opposed to it then there's no point in discussing.
- erispoe 10y ago
  It's not a question of private vs public. It's a question of space efficiency. A single rail line can transport 20 times more than a freeway lane (i.e. without street lights) Rail transit is vastly more space efficient than individual vehicles, autonomous or not. Japan has private rail transit for instance. Property rights in the US would make it very difficult for a private operator to actually build rail transit. Japan's private system also works because transit operators are also real estate developers and can cash in on the land they serve.
  - closeparen 10y ago
    > A single rail line can transport 20 times more than a freeway lane It can do that because its riders are forced into miserably packed standing room. Private vehicle transport can also be much denser if we give up such requirements as "sitting" and "personal space." You could pack, like, 20 people into a Camry and it'd still be far more pleasant than BART between 5-10am or 4-9pm. Of course, some of them would be in the trunk and others tied to the roof rack.
    - erispoe 10y ago
      Sitting might be a requirement for you, and it's fine, but should also be willing to pay the price for it, i.e. live in a suburb that can accommodate your preferences. You cannot live in a dense city rich in amenities and expect to be sitting all the time, it just doesn't work geometrically. In many cities (granted, not San Francisco), people happily stand in public transit for the dozens of minutes they have to spend there, and have satisfied with their experience. Go to Zürich for instance, you'll see bankers riding the S-Bahn when they could afford a car.

by dpflan 10y ago

danjoc 10y ago

The natural progression is car -> bus -> train. The Uber thing is now making congestion really bad where I live too. There's a town in New Jersey[1] that is opting for Uber instead of building a parking structure. Even though that is replacing cars with other cars, it still roughly doubles congestion; Ubers leave empty. More cars clogging the roads is bad for timely transportation and bad for the environment. Not just green house gasses, but motor oil, tires, litter. It's really unfortunate. [1] http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/3/13147680/uber-new-jersey-free-ride-parking-lot-train-commute http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/3/13147680/uber-new-jersey-f...

pchristensen 10y ago

For cities, geometry is still the limiting factor. See http://humantransit.org/2012/09/the-photo-that-explains-almost-everything.html http://humantransit.org/2012/09/the-photo-that-explains-almo... "The scarcity of space per person is part of the very definition of a city, as distinct from suburbia or rural area, so the efficiency with which transport options use that space will always be the paramount issue."

maverick_iceman 10y ago

Why privatized transportation would necessarily be a bad thing if it provides fast, comfortable journeys at a reasonable price? Of course if you're ideologically opposed to it then there's no point in discussing.

erispoe 10y ago
It's not a question of private vs public. It's a question of space efficiency. A single rail line can transport 20 times more than a freeway lane (i.e. without street lights) Rail transit is vastly more space efficient than individual vehicles, autonomous or not. Japan has private rail transit for instance. Property rights in the US would make it very difficult for a private operator to actually build rail transit. Japan's private system also works because transit operators are also real estate developers and can cash in on the land they serve.
- closeparen 10y ago
  > A single rail line can transport 20 times more than a freeway lane It can do that because its riders are forced into miserably packed standing room. Private vehicle transport can also be much denser if we give up such requirements as "sitting" and "personal space." You could pack, like, 20 people into a Camry and it'd still be far more pleasant than BART between 5-10am or 4-9pm. Of course, some of them would be in the trunk and others tied to the roof rack.
  - erispoe 10y ago
    Sitting might be a requirement for you, and it's fine, but should also be willing to pay the price for it, i.e. live in a suburb that can accommodate your preferences. You cannot live in a dense city rich in amenities and expect to be sitting all the time, it just doesn't work geometrically. In many cities (granted, not San Francisco), people happily stand in public transit for the dozens of minutes they have to spend there, and have satisfied with their experience. Go to Zürich for instance, you'll see bankers riding the S-Bahn when they could afford a car.