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Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun
- macmac 10y agoI wrote a small post on the JRockit part of this approx 5 years ago if anybody is interested: http://www.spyfoos.com/blog/2011/07/28/oracle-java-7-and-commercial-features/ http://www.spyfoos.com/blog/2011/07/28/oracle-java-7-and-com...
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- sytelus 10y agoAre there still any reasons why one should choose Java instead of .Net for new developments?
- hocuspocus 10y agoThe JVM ecosystem is vastly richer.
- avalchev 10y ago:) Probably because Java runs without problems on Windows and *IX platforms without major problems.
- wolfgke 10y ago> Probably because Java runs without problems on Windows and IX platforms without major problems. Probably because Java runs without problems on (Windows) and (IX platforms without major problems). FTFY ;-)
- fusiongyro 10y agoOne reason might be you have a team of Java developers. I personally acknowledge that C# is a nicer language, but on Macs and Linux machines I have not had a great experience using it so far. I think if you try it today, you're basically an early adopter. If you're going to be an early adopter, the barn doors are wide open and I'm going to make serious consideration of Python, Haskell or Go.
- rajeshp1986 10y agoweb programming in C# is not very good. Although I like C# as a language. I hate ASP.NET and the way it is built. Java has much better support for writing web applications and tons of open source libraries.
- jklehm 10y agoThere are alternatives, I like this one: http://nancyfx.org/ http://nancyfx.org/
- norea-armozel 10y agoI definitely love Nancy since it's basically Sinatra for C# (IIRC Nancy was inspired by Sinatra).
- twblalock 10y agoCross-platform .Net is not as good as cross-platform Java/JVM. It's getting better, but it's not there yet, and it's currently a very confusing mishmash of concepts and implementations. I suspect it is also difficult to find people who are deeply familiar with it, due to its recency.
- sk5t 10y agoThere are many, many more good libraries for Java in Maven Central than for .NET in Nuget. OS independence, if not quite platform independence, has informed much of those libraries' development. Maven, love it or hate it, can do a staggering number of things, some of them very useful. JAX-RS servers and clients are more robust IME on Java. (Just try to find a capable path+querystring builder for .NET.) JDBC is still the gold standard for database connectivity.
- revelation 10y agoMaven, where your build script is actually declarative XML that might or might not run. Maven, which spends a minute contacting random servers all over the world only to tell you there is a closing tag missing. I still have a repository where Surefire (hah) refuses to run any tests. Impossible to debug. No, that pile won't be missed.
- pjmlp 10y agoI will rather take Maven a full day over a few seconds with Gradle.
- vorg 10y agoSince Gradle 3, Kotlin is the preferred language for writing build scripts and addins, rather than just Apache Groovy. If you use Kotlin instead of Java for your Android coding, you can use the same language for writing your build scripts as you do for your system code.
- jongalloway2 10y agoCurious what you're looking for in a path+querystring builder. For ASP.NET controllers, I'd use attribute routing's URL generation: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/mvc/controllers/routing#url-generation https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/mvc/controllers... If you want a separate library for use outside of ASP.NET, and you want something more sophisticated than UriBuilder, there are several out there. I've used Superscribe in the past, but I just looked around and Flurl looks pretty neat: http://tmenier.github.io/Flurl/ http://tmenier.github.io/Flurl/
- edko 10y agoThe JVM: it is not only Java than runs on it, but Scala, Clojure, Ceylon, etc. Although many of these languages support other compilation targets (JavaScript, for example), the JVM is always their main and most powerful platform.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- hocuspocus 10y agoFor anyone on Windows willing to switch to OpenJDK, there are builds from - Azul: http://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/ http://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/ - RedHat: https://developers.redhat.com/products/openjdk/overview/ https://developers.redhat.com/products/openjdk/overview/ - JetBrains: https://bintray.com/jetbrains/intellij-jdk https://bintray.com/jetbrains/intellij-jdk
- pjmlp 10y agoApparently people keep forgetting who pays the majority of OpenJDK developers.
- wolfgke 10y agoIf the OpenJDK developers would provide official builds of it, I could accept the argument.
- pjmlp 10y agoSo what do you think it would happen if Oracle just made OpenJDK offline, withdraw its developers or even nastier changes to OpenJDK (left to imagination)? Which of those listed companies would try to keep OpenJDK alive and drive the JEPs?
- wolfgke 10y ago> Which of those listed companies would try to keep OpenJDK alive and drive the JEPs? The question should rather be: Which of those listed companies will Oracle sue for doing so?
- nitrogen 10y agoThere are many examples of projects maintained by a cooperative effort between multiple corporations.
- pjmlp 10y ago
- koolba 10y agoHow real is this and what impact, if any, would this have on server apps that run on a JVM? There's tons of them, many of which bundle a copy of the JVM in the app itself. The latter is the suggested deployment model in containers (i.e. bundle all your dependencies). Also, would using OpenJDK remove any "Get your ass sued by Oracle" risk or just defer it to a later date?
- pron 10y agoIt seems like all the features that require a license are those that require launching the Oracle JVM with `-XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures`. If you're not running with this flag enabled you should be fine. Note that those features are not in OpenJDK to begin with.
- adictator 10y agoAbsolutely. By all means bundle the JVM because it is a dependency, but do not bundle Oracle's JVM/jre in your container images.
- narrator 10y agoThey are slowly strangling every single golden goose they got from Sun.
- satysin 10y agoThere is so much negativity around Java that I wonder why anyone starting on their journey to becoming a programmer would want to learn it or work with it.
- wolfgke 10y ago> There is so much negativity around Java that I wonder why anyone starting on their journey to becoming a programmer would want to learn it or work with it. Because it is used in many CS curricula.
- imglorp 10y agoThe negativity is well earned but companies like java because there are plenty of interchangeable worker bees available. Ditto libraries and ecosystem. If you always want a job of some kind, for the next 30 years, it's safe to put it on your resume.
- pjmlp 10y agoBecause it is the only alternative to .NET for those of us working with enterprise customers. Pick the list of Fortune 500 companies and many smaller ones that work with them, take out the few SV darlings, and they will either be using .NET or Java for the majority of their software. Specially those whose commercial domain isn't at all related to software development. C and C++ are usually around as library languages supporting those applications, or older applications, many of them still written in frameworks like MFC and such. Even if Oracle would kill Java, which might happen with this kind of behavior, it will take a few generations to change to something else, specially since many people are unaware of the amount of hardware running embedded JVMs.
- 67726e 10y agoThat was probably my first "mainstream" language I learned as a teen. What kind of negativity do you mean?
- patates 10y agoOutside of HN, it's not very different than any other mainstream language, and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't work with Java at all.
- hubetcha 10y agoRichard Stallman was right about Java all along.
- rpd9803 10y agoBut something something something Aspergers something picking feet something
- wolfgke 10y agoWhat evidence can you present that Richard Stallman has Aspergers?
- norea-armozel 10y agoI think he means in jest that people have constantly talked about Stallman's quirks that are honestly gross but shouldn't take away from what he says regarding technology.
- astrodust 10y agoHis "quirks" are what harms his message. The same could be said for his long-time collaborator ESR who has some quirks that are beyond eating shit from his feet. You want a spokesperson for something they better be worthy of respect. That's their primary function. It's not being a sage of truth. People listen to those they respect, and his behaviour at times is so out of line that he spends more time destroying his credibility than communicating.
- jmiserez 10y agoPeople sometimes are just thick, focusing on "quirks" instead of the content. I get that people might disagree with his views, but why would they think he's not worthy of respect?
- true_religion 10y ago
- pera 10y agoAnd this is why Oracle will lie at the side of SCO in the Bay Area graveyard.
- nullnilvoid 10y agoGreat news for Golang. Time to switch if you have not.
- patates 10y agoGo doesn't share any kind of similarity in purpose, methodology or audience with Java. Or maybe you were being sarcastic?
- teach 10y agoC# is a much better drop-in replacement for Java.
- mahyarm 10y agoIt fits the generic GC performant network server designed for large teams in mind. A large segment in Java land.
- eropple 10y agoI would say that Go is designed for small teams. Minimal compiler safety and generally weak code reuse (outside of code generation, which...no) under the guise of "just microservice all the things." It is an okay analogue to Java 1.4. But the state of the art is significantly further along, and OpenJDK+Kotlin (or Scala, if you're adventurous) is a significantly more well-considered alternative that fits much better into a Java workflow (not that those Java workflows are in danger in the first place, given that they don't use any version of Java that is outside the license).
- spdegabrielle 10y agoSounds like good news for C++ developers? I'm assuming C#/.net carries the same risk, and C/C++ does not.
- pjmlp 10y agoI doubt most enterprises would be willing to go back to C++.
- astrodust 10y agoC++ is as much as dead in the enterprise outside of a few niche concerns. It's just too hard to get right. C# and Java are significantly more forgiving and for most use cases are perfectly adequate. Performance is a reasonable concern, but not the primary driver of language choice. If you look at the sort of Java code some people churn out in an enterprise environment you'd be glad they weren't using C++ which has significantly more sharp edges. Throwing random exceptions isn't as bad as periodically segfaulting for no apparent reason.
- pjmlp 10y agoThe most recent example of this was Android Things. Brillo was supposed to have key Android frameworks made available in C++, as explained at set of Linux Embedded talks. Instead what happened was they brought in the Android Java frameworks and renamed it to Android Things.
- ninofloris 10y agoDotnet is fully open source (mit licensed) for more than a year now. Let's just say I knew which of the two ecosystems to pick half a year ago for a new project. Java (as an ecosystem) is going down the drain as oracle has no clue what the dev world wants and where they are pivoting towards. Commercial frameworks and commercial languages are fast on their way out.
- jongalloway2 10y ago.NET is under MIT license (https://github.com/Microsoft/dotnet/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/Microsoft/dotnet/blob/master/LICENSE) and there's also a patent promise (https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecifications/dn646766 https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecifications/dn646766). There isn't an "enterprise .NET" version for sale. There are enterprise versions of Visual Studio, servers, etc., but nothing you could feasibly be "accidentally" using, and nothing that you have to use to do .NET dev. What specific risk(s) are you thinking about? Disclaimer: Microsoft employee, Nazgûl
- alfalfasprout 10y agoOne thing Oracle doesn't seem to understand is that the whole "milk it till it's dry" strategy won't last forever. Everything they touch is a catastrophe. Oracle database? Bloated, absurdly expensive, and blown away by PostgreSQL. If you really want bulletproof reliability and absurd throughput then DB2 on a mainframe is a better choice. Virtualbox? Bloated, slow, and much more buggy than VMware's offerings. ERP software? Companies could save tons of money using a custom solution and even if you are so massive you need something like Oracle's ESP SAP's offering is infinitely better (and cheaper). Java? Don't even get me started on Java...
- inhumanellison 10y agoAnd yet they bought java along with all of sun with the money they made doing just that. Their strategy works. They're not kind or well thought of in the dev community - have they ever been? They don't care. They're interested in having enterprise decision makers on their side.
- astrodust 10y agoDon't forget MySQL. It's not that Oracle ruins properties, the same could be said of Microsoft over the years, but that they tastelessly ruin them. Bundling the Ask Toolbar with Java is absolutely insulting. Not even Adobe stoops that low.
- yrro 10y agoHudson too...
- edko 10y agoI am not sure I understand this: if I develop an application and distribute it using the installer that embeds the JVM, then I owe Oracle??
- Recurecur 10y agoOne interesting alternative to Java SE would be an OpenJDK JVM bundled with one or more of the superior alternatives to Java the language. Such a package with Scala might make major inroads into the enterprise over time, with virtually no risk. Clojure is also a widely respected JVM language.
- slim 10y agoWhy is this business model legal? I mean, suppose I give you a candy, wait for you to eat it then ask for payement aguing that it's obvious I'm not giving it for free. I'm sure there are forgotten laws protecting against such a business
- smonff 10y agoWas Oracle present at the Trump building some days ago?
- janci 10y agoWhen exactly do I need to pay for Java? When I develop with JDK? When I download java from https://java.com https://java.com and install with default settings? When I download the installer from https://java.com https://java.com and distribute it alongside with my java programs?
- jmiserez 10y agoThe one thing that truly matters is how they determine if your use is "embedded" or not. And they left the answer out of the FAQ: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/articles/javase/faqs-jsp-136696.html http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/articles/javase/faqs-jsp-1... >Frequently Asked Questions >Is Java still free? >The current version of Java - Java SE 8 - is free and available for redistribution for general purpose computing. Java SE continues to be available under the Oracle Binary Code License (BCL) free of charge. JRE use for embedded devices and other computing environments may require a license fee from Oracle. Read more about embedded use of Java SE or contact your local Oracle sales representative to obtain a license. Also, this link has more info on specific features that cost money, aside from the embedded vs general purpose issue: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/products/index.html http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/products...
- datashovel 10y agoI wonder how it looks to courts that Oracle, thus far, has strategically singled out Google? If Oracle does not show a concerted effort to protect their copyright from all who are "infringing", does that help delegitimize their case against Google?
- smonff 10y agoAlphabet will swallow Oracle to save it's Android. Nice sci-fi scenario.