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While not the perfect solution it seems like a lot of the mentioned issues (standardized communication channels, no conflict of interest) could be solved by ins

by kriro 10y ago

While not the perfect solution it seems like a lot of the mentioned issues (standardized communication channels, no conflict of interest) could be solved by installing work councils (I take it they are not wide spread in the US? They are standard in Germany): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_council

Xylakant 10y ago
unions and work councils are fairly rare in the IT/startup sector in Germany. If they exist it's usually because it's the IT department of an old, established enterprise. The rate of union membership in anything that's IT related is comparatively low as well. Personally, I consider that a problem, because it leaves each employee to fight their own fight. But IT folks somehow tend to believe that they don't need any help (and then subsequently sign contracts with unlimited unpaid overtime because they don't know it's illegal).
- mpweiher 10y ago
  Illegal contract clauses tend to be non-enforceable. So you can sign and then ignore.
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    But the outcome of that depends largely on who's got the position they want. If a contract has an illegal non-compete, it's easy for an employee to sign and then ignore it. After all, the employer would have to find the violation, sue them, and risk summary dismissal. The employee wins just by having everyone give up. If a contract features unpaid overtime, though, the employee is working time and not getting paid. They can refuse the work, get fired, and then sue, or they can do the work and then sue for nonpayment. In either case, they need to win to come out ahead, which is a lengthy and uncertain process. Ignoring unenforceable provisions is only easy for someone who doesn't need a court decision to get a good outcome.
    - Xylakant 10y ago
      While it's always an option to sue for payment of unpaid overtime after you left that will still leave a mark on your resume an people may be hesitant to hire. It's also lengthy and risky because it requires solid documentation. And, first of all it requires that you're aware that the clause is overreaching and thus null and void. I often see people not getting paid for time worked because they're unaware. I also fairly often hear about uncompensated non-compete clauses which are also illegal, but people are scared to go see a lawyer. A good union provides both: a check on the contracts in a company and legal advice and professional backing in court when needed.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - mpweiher 10y ago
      > They can refuse the work, get fired, and then sue... The parent was talking about Germany in particular. Employee protection is fairly strong, so an employer will think twice before firing someone over non-compliance with an illegal contract, as they will get their ass handed to them in court.
lostboys67 10y ago
Day today discipline and grievances are not handled at the works council level that would be done at the branch level.

by kriro 10y ago

Xylakant 10y ago

unions and work councils are fairly rare in the IT/startup sector in Germany. If they exist it's usually because it's the IT department of an old, established enterprise. The rate of union membership in anything that's IT related is comparatively low as well. Personally, I consider that a problem, because it leaves each employee to fight their own fight. But IT folks somehow tend to believe that they don't need any help (and then subsequently sign contracts with unlimited unpaid overtime because they don't know it's illegal).

mpweiher 10y ago
Illegal contract clauses tend to be non-enforceable. So you can sign and then ignore.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  But the outcome of that depends largely on who's got the position they want. If a contract has an illegal non-compete, it's easy for an employee to sign and then ignore it. After all, the employer would have to find the violation, sue them, and risk summary dismissal. The employee wins just by having everyone give up. If a contract features unpaid overtime, though, the employee is working time and not getting paid. They can refuse the work, get fired, and then sue, or they can do the work and then sue for nonpayment. In either case, they need to win to come out ahead, which is a lengthy and uncertain process. Ignoring unenforceable provisions is only easy for someone who doesn't need a court decision to get a good outcome.
  - Xylakant 10y ago
    While it's always an option to sue for payment of unpaid overtime after you left that will still leave a mark on your resume an people may be hesitant to hire. It's also lengthy and risky because it requires solid documentation. And, first of all it requires that you're aware that the clause is overreaching and thus null and void. I often see people not getting paid for time worked because they're unaware. I also fairly often hear about uncompensated non-compete clauses which are also illegal, but people are scared to go see a lawyer. A good union provides both: a check on the contracts in a company and legal advice and professional backing in court when needed.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - mpweiher 10y ago
    > They can refuse the work, get fired, and then sue... The parent was talking about Germany in particular. Employee protection is fairly strong, so an employer will think twice before firing someone over non-compliance with an illegal contract, as they will get their ass handed to them in court.

lostboys67 10y ago

Day today discipline and grievances are not handled at the works council level that would be done at the branch level.