4 ms·

> Can't we do something to increase the competition in the "cloud" area Yes, we have to change our mindset back from "Let's put everything (apps and data) into

> Can't we do something to increase the competition in the "cloud" area Yes, we have to change our mindset back from "Let's put everything (apps and data) into the cloud" to "Let's only use the cloud as _one_ of many ways for data storage and data synching. Everything else is done locally and on private servers". This whole trend of web-apps is really bad for free software because it creates a dependency on 3rd party servers. Just imagine you could only use Emacs or Vim if you are connected to the internet... We have to get rid of the idea that the default form of software is supposed to be a webpage. Make software local again and therefore reduce the influence of large cloud providers.

chillydawg 10y ago
But why? It's convenient for the end user and connectivity is only going to get better. Pining for the days of desktop apps for everything isnt going to get you very far.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  It works on mobiles, factory and robot control systems, integration with external devices, and all use cases where HTML 5 is just a poor UI/UX.
  - BoorishBears 10y ago
    A huge part of it is you can hire an HTML 5 developer to give you something with all the eye candy users have come to expect for much cheaper, and much less effort, than the native equivalent. Now we even have Electron so you can package your own version of Chrome and reuse your web devs. It's practically a self feeding cycle at this point, people aren't going to coding bootcamps for WPF/C#, they're going for HTML/CSS/Js, because people hire for that with much less fanfare. And people hire for that with less fanfare because HTML/CSS/Js is so ubiquitous. And with the shift to HTML/Js everywhere "who needs WPF but stuffy business types?" *Replace WPF and C# with GTK,Qt,C++,C, etc. as needed.
    - ams6110 10y ago
      You can certainly deliver local software that uses a browser for display and has all the "eye candy" you want. It doesn't require a network connection at all.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        Try to control healthcare devices with a browser, just as a possible example.
        sangnoir 10y ago
        You mean like this[1]? 1. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/252958059_Ubiquitous_remote_operation_collaborative_interface_for_MRI_scanners https://www.researchgate.net/publication/252958059_Ubiquitou...
        pjmlp 10y ago
        Is that a comercial product?
        sangnoir 10y ago
        > Is that a comercial product? What does that have to do with anything upthread? This non-sequitur is shifting the goal post: your initial challenge sounded like it's something that cannot or should not be done - yet it was.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        No, it is a big difference making a prototype to write a paper about it, and making something that is actually viable to be used in production while following industry standards and device integration procedures.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      > Now we even have Electron so you can package your own version of Chrome and reuse your web devs. We already had it in the 90's, it was called MSHTML. There was even the concept of packaged web apps directly supported by Windows. > *Replace WPF and C# with GTK,Qt,C++,C, etc. as needed. Yet, I moved from web back into WPF/C#, iOS and Android a few years ago and can't complain about lack of work. Also gained some sanity in the process.
  - morgante 10y ago
    "Cloud" storage is orthogonal to HTML. Most mobile apps also store their user data in the cloud.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Mobile apps can use cloud storage, web apps must use cloud storage (IndexDB and friends aren't really good enough).
- 91829199 10y ago
  Is this a serious question? The arguments against web apps and the "cloud" should be well-known here.
  - clintonb 10y ago
    https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/ You mind sharing the knowledge that is so "well-known here"? We aren't all part of a hive mind.
    - phil21 10y ago
      It's too long to really go into, but my personal "old guy" take is that this is yet more of the same cycles computing has always seen. By cycles I mean the constant cycle between centralizing compute power and decentralizing as the economics and benefits shift between those two paradigms. What is being done now on the "cloud" (yes, I hate the term) is simply what was being done with mainframe computing systems 35 years ago, only we have better connectivity and graphics to support the consumer version of it. I expect to see a shift back towards individual "on-prem" devices at some point, but that will probably be another 10-20 years and will take a black swan (or multiple baby black swans) event no one here can predict to happen - just like no one in the mainframe days predicted the consumer Internet. I absolutely agree giving control of the Internet to perhaps 10 total companies that have 90%+ of the content delivery traffic is a horrible idea with only one assured outcome.
      - user5994461 10y ago
        That's not an argument against the cloud. That's an argument for the cloud. The usage follow the evolution of technology. Did mainframe when it was the right tool for the job, will do cloud when it will be the right tool for the job.
    - throw_10000 10y ago
      I'd say that pulling out the xkcd when someone's "question" ends in "Pining for the days of desktop apps for everything isnt going to get you very far." is a bit strange.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 10y ago
  > and connectivity is only going to get better. If it gets more robust too then sure, but it won't.
gutnor 10y ago
> We have to get rid of the idea that the default form of software is supposed to be a webpage. You need to know why that becomes the norm rather than the exception. Ease of management, installation, upgrade, ... is really what drove those changes back to centralised server. Solve those issues and people will go back to develop local application again. Actually, those issues are solved on mobile and every app store is testament to that. As a side note, it is interesting to note that Cloud providers could be seen as the ultimate free software end game. Remember the "make your money on support, distribute software for free" ? Well that's what cloud provider are doing: they are just selling you convenience and support in a box on top of what is overwhelmingly free software.
- granos 10y ago
  They are also exploiting economies of scale. For Amazon, the marginal cost of a server is very small. For some startup, bringing up and maintaining a data center is astronomically expensive. By going with a cloud provider instead of hiring their own staff and buying their own hardware they save lots of money. If you don't need control over the hardware and networking and such then you can save money on the responsibility for it.
user5994461 10y ago
> Can't we do something to increase the competition in the "cloud" area More than AWS & Google Cloud & Microsoft Azure??? Do you realize there are 3 of the biggest tech companies, investing thousands of people and billions of dollar to fight each other? Plus the cheaper company Digital Ocean / Linode who are catering to a different market, and are eating the food of GoDaddy/OVH... The cloud war is actively ongoing. Maybe we should have more articles to show it.
- manojlds 10y ago
  Google Cloud and Azure are pretty huge, which many people don't seem to realize. There is no way Amazon can relax, not with the enterprise experience of Microsoft and the tech experience of Google breathing on their necks.

chillydawg 10y ago

But why? It's convenient for the end user and connectivity is only going to get better. Pining for the days of desktop apps for everything isnt going to get you very far.

pjmlp 10y ago
It works on mobiles, factory and robot control systems, integration with external devices, and all use cases where HTML 5 is just a poor UI/UX.
- BoorishBears 10y ago
  A huge part of it is you can hire an HTML 5 developer to give you something with all the eye candy users have come to expect for much cheaper, and much less effort, than the native equivalent. Now we even have Electron so you can package your own version of Chrome and reuse your web devs. It's practically a self feeding cycle at this point, people aren't going to coding bootcamps for WPF/C#, they're going for HTML/CSS/Js, because people hire for that with much less fanfare. And people hire for that with less fanfare because HTML/CSS/Js is so ubiquitous. And with the shift to HTML/Js everywhere "who needs WPF but stuffy business types?" *Replace WPF and C# with GTK,Qt,C++,C, etc. as needed.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    You can certainly deliver local software that uses a browser for display and has all the "eye candy" you want. It doesn't require a network connection at all.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Try to control healthcare devices with a browser, just as a possible example.
      - sangnoir 10y ago
        You mean like this[1]? 1. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/252958059_Ubiquitous_remote_operation_collaborative_interface_for_MRI_scanners https://www.researchgate.net/publication/252958059_Ubiquitou...
        pjmlp 10y ago
        Is that a comercial product?
        sangnoir 10y ago
        > Is that a comercial product? What does that have to do with anything upthread? This non-sequitur is shifting the goal post: your initial challenge sounded like it's something that cannot or should not be done - yet it was.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        No, it is a big difference making a prototype to write a paper about it, and making something that is actually viable to be used in production while following industry standards and device integration procedures.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    > Now we even have Electron so you can package your own version of Chrome and reuse your web devs. We already had it in the 90's, it was called MSHTML. There was even the concept of packaged web apps directly supported by Windows. > *Replace WPF and C# with GTK,Qt,C++,C, etc. as needed. Yet, I moved from web back into WPF/C#, iOS and Android a few years ago and can't complain about lack of work. Also gained some sanity in the process.
- morgante 10y ago
  "Cloud" storage is orthogonal to HTML. Most mobile apps also store their user data in the cloud.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Mobile apps can use cloud storage, web apps must use cloud storage (IndexDB and friends aren't really good enough).
91829199 10y ago
Is this a serious question? The arguments against web apps and the "cloud" should be well-known here.
- clintonb 10y ago
  https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/ You mind sharing the knowledge that is so "well-known here"? We aren't all part of a hive mind.
  - phil21 10y ago
    It's too long to really go into, but my personal "old guy" take is that this is yet more of the same cycles computing has always seen. By cycles I mean the constant cycle between centralizing compute power and decentralizing as the economics and benefits shift between those two paradigms. What is being done now on the "cloud" (yes, I hate the term) is simply what was being done with mainframe computing systems 35 years ago, only we have better connectivity and graphics to support the consumer version of it. I expect to see a shift back towards individual "on-prem" devices at some point, but that will probably be another 10-20 years and will take a black swan (or multiple baby black swans) event no one here can predict to happen - just like no one in the mainframe days predicted the consumer Internet. I absolutely agree giving control of the Internet to perhaps 10 total companies that have 90%+ of the content delivery traffic is a horrible idea with only one assured outcome.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      That's not an argument against the cloud. That's an argument for the cloud. The usage follow the evolution of technology. Did mainframe when it was the right tool for the job, will do cloud when it will be the right tool for the job.
  - throw_10000 10y ago
    I'd say that pulling out the xkcd when someone's "question" ends in "Pining for the days of desktop apps for everything isnt going to get you very far." is a bit strange.
0xdeadbeefbabe 10y ago
> and connectivity is only going to get better. If it gets more robust too then sure, but it won't.

gutnor 10y ago

> We have to get rid of the idea that the default form of software is supposed to be a webpage. You need to know why that becomes the norm rather than the exception. Ease of management, installation, upgrade, ... is really what drove those changes back to centralised server. Solve those issues and people will go back to develop local application again. Actually, those issues are solved on mobile and every app store is testament to that. As a side note, it is interesting to note that Cloud providers could be seen as the ultimate free software end game. Remember the "make your money on support, distribute software for free" ? Well that's what cloud provider are doing: they are just selling you convenience and support in a box on top of what is overwhelmingly free software.

granos 10y ago
They are also exploiting economies of scale. For Amazon, the marginal cost of a server is very small. For some startup, bringing up and maintaining a data center is astronomically expensive. By going with a cloud provider instead of hiring their own staff and buying their own hardware they save lots of money. If you don't need control over the hardware and networking and such then you can save money on the responsibility for it.

user5994461 10y ago

> Can't we do something to increase the competition in the "cloud" area More than AWS & Google Cloud & Microsoft Azure??? Do you realize there are 3 of the biggest tech companies, investing thousands of people and billions of dollar to fight each other? Plus the cheaper company Digital Ocean / Linode who are catering to a different market, and are eating the food of GoDaddy/OVH... The cloud war is actively ongoing. Maybe we should have more articles to show it.

manojlds 10y ago
Google Cloud and Azure are pretty huge, which many people don't seem to realize. There is no way Amazon can relax, not with the enterprise experience of Microsoft and the tech experience of Google breathing on their necks.