4 ms·

> Even increase by dozen of years may result in wars and chaos Care to explain? I don't see why humans living on average a dozen years longer would inevitably

by sho 10y ago

> Even increase by dozen of years may result in wars and chaos Care to explain? I don't see why humans living on average a dozen years longer would inevitably lead to "wars and chaos" and a breakdown of social order. Indeed, we saw lifespans increase by two dozen in the last 80 or so years and nothing happened at all. The usual arguments about overpopulation don't seem to apply to developed countries; if anything it's the opposite. So what's the big deal? And why do you assume that any negative externalities created by life extension technology are inherently unfixable?

jjoe 10y ago
I can think of a few pertinent cases. With every new generation you get fresh perspectives. Old practices die because generations die with them. Can you imagine slavery practices getting a "lifespan increase." I bet the "cold war" mind set works the same way. You rarely see cold war brought up by much younger folks. It's always an old gen rehash. What about a ruthless dictator like Kim Jong Un getting 12 extra years on earth?
- bassislife 10y ago
  All these dictators in Africa ruling for (eternal) life ?!! What a nightmare !
  - somanychoices 10y ago
    The nightmare would be, as Hannah Arendt pointed out, the perfection of the concentration camps: the ability to torture someone forever while keeping them alive.
    - bassislife 10y ago
      That's not different from having a bad leader ruling forever... That's torture. 1789 occured for a reason.
- chongli 10y ago
  With every new generation you get fresh perspectives. Who says we can't solve that problem as well? We've already had a bunch of research into psychedelics and countless anecdotes about people who claim drugs like LSD completely changed their outlook on life. I could envision a future where people effectively live forever and continually renew their interest in life with drugs. Selective amnesia, personality-altering drugs -- a new person from the same body!
- HaveCourage 10y ago
  Fresh perspectives generate fresh perspectives. Birth doesn't as well, because schools tend to standardize viewpoints as do religions. If birth was a good cure, you wouldn't get regression. Like the dark ages, or what's going on in Iran. Rolling the dice and hoping for a better outcome is inferior to building and advertising better outcomes. It would be easy to dream the pro death people die off and be replaced with more adventurous types, but its not fair to wish for someones death because they disagree with you.
knuffelbert 10y ago
It's worth noting that people getting much older (what the OP is saying) and the increase in life expectancy in the last century (what you mentioned) is quite different as the increase of life expectancy is due to a drastic decrease in child mortality not longer life for those who made it to adulthood. Once you make it to 20 or so, chances are you'll stick around for another 50-60 years even a century ago.
- Lewton 10y ago
  According to this random table[0] I found on the intergoogles, you're technically correct but misrepresenting it with your 50-60 figure.. 100 years ago it was around 50, and now it's around 60. But finding trustworthy data about life expectancy at age X have been really hard every time I've tried to actually investigate claims regarding longer life expectancy, especially because ideally you'd want to exclude deaths by accidents and certain kinds of diseases (but not all!) to figure out at what rate actual longevity has been improved over the years. So I'm still a little agnostic about the whole thing. [0] http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html
caio1982 10y ago
> Indeed, we saw lifespans increase by two dozen in the last > 80 or so years and nothing happened at all. Please define "nothing" in your sentence. Lots of countries have been dealing with welfare spending recently due to general aging in their population. If we live two dozen more years that means someone will have to pay for those retirements. I don't know where you live but most developed or developing nations have some sort of government-sponsored retirement/age pension system or welfare program they have to maintain (and is usually paid by the working force alive today). > The usual arguments about overpopulation don't seem to > apply to developed countries; if anything it's the > opposite. You gotta be kidding. Haven't you ever considered what would happen if a good chunk of the world population magically started to live by the wasteful and consumption driven standards most developed countries have, like the US or Japan (or even Russia)? We still have margin for more people in the planet but certainly not with the so called "developed countries" way of life (energy-wise, amount of garbage produced, pollution emissions etc).
- chimprich 10y ago
  > If we live two dozen more years that means someone will have to pay for those retirements. You're assuming that we'd just extend life rather than slow or partially reverse ageing as the article describes. You would assume that people would work for longer if this was the case. You may even get a "better" (from an economics point of view) ratio of working life to retirement time.
  - conjectures 10y ago
    This is important. The demographics issue isn't so much people being old, it's being old and infirm. If advances give us a healthier old age rather than merely a longer one, then they would alleviate rather than exacerbate the problem.
dandare 10y ago
My mistake, I meant couple dozen of years, like 24 - 99. Also, the change will be sudden, not gradual.
Chestofdraw 10y ago
I don't think it's fair to say nothing happened at all. Aging populations, coupled with low birth rates, are causing difficult political problems. In my country (UK) pensions are the biggest government expenditure next is healthcare, which the elderly use the most. This obviously has to be paid for so you have two options, raise taxes or increase immigration. Our government chose to increase immigration and a lot of people didn't like that so the government blamed the EU, this went on for a while and brexit was the eventual response. So the chaos is already here, war might be hyperbole but a war caused by something is not unimaginable and ageing populations would be a contributing factor. I feel there is an increasing level of bitterness directed towards the old. The government panders to them for easy votes which takes public spending from the young and my gut feeling is having policies that cater for the old is not healthy for the long term success of of a society.
- mattmanser 10y ago
  The solution is to raise the pension age. Just politically difficult. Raised pension age vs longer life, fairly obvious choice.
  - IanCal 10y ago
    This is already a potential social problem with there being a link between deprivation and life expectancy. Increasing the retirement age may result in the poorest likely receiving no pension.
  - bildung 10y ago
    An alternative solution is to raise wages.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >Our government chose to increase immigration and a lot of people didn't like that so the government blamed the EU, this went on for a while and brexit was the eventual response. Well, your government chose to increase immigration while also suppressing housing construction and wages. The result is that the government set the immigrants against the native-born citizens in a zero-sum economic contest for basic human needs, while the rich eat up all available economic gains that could have gone to young workers or old pensioners. >So the chaos is already here, war might be hyperbole but a war caused by something is not unimaginable and ageing populations would be a contributing factor. You need young people to staff the armies.
eranation 10y ago
Increase in lifespan plus decrease in birth rate is the problem. If both grow, you just scale up. But if not, eventually you'll end up with a problem.
mabbo 10y ago
It's not about all humans living a decade more on average, it's about those with the wealth to afford it getting a decade more of healthy years, while the poor do not. A decade more of time to earn more, build more, become more wealthy and pass that on to children who are then wealthier. Damn, this would be a fantastic dystopian sci fi plot point.
- dpeck 10y ago
  Look at life spans of royalty vs commoners in 19th and early 20th century, this already happened and took the medical advances of 20th century to make similar.
kharms 10y ago
Estate taxes and legacy-driven philanthropy play a huge role in the redistribution of wealth, so there is that.

by sho 10y ago

jjoe 10y ago

I can think of a few pertinent cases. With every new generation you get fresh perspectives. Old practices die because generations die with them. Can you imagine slavery practices getting a "lifespan increase." I bet the "cold war" mind set works the same way. You rarely see cold war brought up by much younger folks. It's always an old gen rehash. What about a ruthless dictator like Kim Jong Un getting 12 extra years on earth?

bassislife 10y ago
All these dictators in Africa ruling for (eternal) life ?!! What a nightmare !
- somanychoices 10y ago
  The nightmare would be, as Hannah Arendt pointed out, the perfection of the concentration camps: the ability to torture someone forever while keeping them alive.
  - bassislife 10y ago
    That's not different from having a bad leader ruling forever... That's torture. 1789 occured for a reason.
chongli 10y ago
With every new generation you get fresh perspectives. Who says we can't solve that problem as well? We've already had a bunch of research into psychedelics and countless anecdotes about people who claim drugs like LSD completely changed their outlook on life. I could envision a future where people effectively live forever and continually renew their interest in life with drugs. Selective amnesia, personality-altering drugs -- a new person from the same body!
HaveCourage 10y ago
Fresh perspectives generate fresh perspectives. Birth doesn't as well, because schools tend to standardize viewpoints as do religions. If birth was a good cure, you wouldn't get regression. Like the dark ages, or what's going on in Iran. Rolling the dice and hoping for a better outcome is inferior to building and advertising better outcomes. It would be easy to dream the pro death people die off and be replaced with more adventurous types, but its not fair to wish for someones death because they disagree with you.

knuffelbert 10y ago

It's worth noting that people getting much older (what the OP is saying) and the increase in life expectancy in the last century (what you mentioned) is quite different as the increase of life expectancy is due to a drastic decrease in child mortality not longer life for those who made it to adulthood. Once you make it to 20 or so, chances are you'll stick around for another 50-60 years even a century ago.

Lewton 10y ago
According to this random table[0] I found on the intergoogles, you're technically correct but misrepresenting it with your 50-60 figure.. 100 years ago it was around 50, and now it's around 60. But finding trustworthy data about life expectancy at age X have been really hard every time I've tried to actually investigate claims regarding longer life expectancy, especially because ideally you'd want to exclude deaths by accidents and certain kinds of diseases (but not all!) to figure out at what rate actual longevity has been improved over the years. So I'm still a little agnostic about the whole thing. [0] http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html

caio1982 10y ago

> Indeed, we saw lifespans increase by two dozen in the last > 80 or so years and nothing happened at all. Please define "nothing" in your sentence. Lots of countries have been dealing with welfare spending recently due to general aging in their population. If we live two dozen more years that means someone will have to pay for those retirements. I don't know where you live but most developed or developing nations have some sort of government-sponsored retirement/age pension system or welfare program they have to maintain (and is usually paid by the working force alive today). > The usual arguments about overpopulation don't seem to > apply to developed countries; if anything it's the > opposite. You gotta be kidding. Haven't you ever considered what would happen if a good chunk of the world population magically started to live by the wasteful and consumption driven standards most developed countries have, like the US or Japan (or even Russia)? We still have margin for more people in the planet but certainly not with the so called "developed countries" way of life (energy-wise, amount of garbage produced, pollution emissions etc).

chimprich 10y ago
> If we live two dozen more years that means someone will have to pay for those retirements. You're assuming that we'd just extend life rather than slow or partially reverse ageing as the article describes. You would assume that people would work for longer if this was the case. You may even get a "better" (from an economics point of view) ratio of working life to retirement time.
- conjectures 10y ago
  This is important. The demographics issue isn't so much people being old, it's being old and infirm. If advances give us a healthier old age rather than merely a longer one, then they would alleviate rather than exacerbate the problem.

dandare 10y ago

My mistake, I meant couple dozen of years, like 24 - 99. Also, the change will be sudden, not gradual.

Chestofdraw 10y ago

I don't think it's fair to say nothing happened at all. Aging populations, coupled with low birth rates, are causing difficult political problems. In my country (UK) pensions are the biggest government expenditure next is healthcare, which the elderly use the most. This obviously has to be paid for so you have two options, raise taxes or increase immigration. Our government chose to increase immigration and a lot of people didn't like that so the government blamed the EU, this went on for a while and brexit was the eventual response. So the chaos is already here, war might be hyperbole but a war caused by something is not unimaginable and ageing populations would be a contributing factor. I feel there is an increasing level of bitterness directed towards the old. The government panders to them for easy votes which takes public spending from the young and my gut feeling is having policies that cater for the old is not healthy for the long term success of of a society.

mattmanser 10y ago
The solution is to raise the pension age. Just politically difficult. Raised pension age vs longer life, fairly obvious choice.
- IanCal 10y ago
  This is already a potential social problem with there being a link between deprivation and life expectancy. Increasing the retirement age may result in the poorest likely receiving no pension.
- bildung 10y ago
  An alternative solution is to raise wages.
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>Our government chose to increase immigration and a lot of people didn't like that so the government blamed the EU, this went on for a while and brexit was the eventual response. Well, your government chose to increase immigration while also suppressing housing construction and wages. The result is that the government set the immigrants against the native-born citizens in a zero-sum economic contest for basic human needs, while the rich eat up all available economic gains that could have gone to young workers or old pensioners. >So the chaos is already here, war might be hyperbole but a war caused by something is not unimaginable and ageing populations would be a contributing factor. You need young people to staff the armies.

eranation 10y ago

Increase in lifespan plus decrease in birth rate is the problem. If both grow, you just scale up. But if not, eventually you'll end up with a problem.

mabbo 10y ago

It's not about all humans living a decade more on average, it's about those with the wealth to afford it getting a decade more of healthy years, while the poor do not. A decade more of time to earn more, build more, become more wealthy and pass that on to children who are then wealthier. Damn, this would be a fantastic dystopian sci fi plot point.

dpeck 10y ago
Look at life spans of royalty vs commoners in 19th and early 20th century, this already happened and took the medical advances of 20th century to make similar.

kharms 10y ago

Estate taxes and legacy-driven philanthropy play a huge role in the redistribution of wealth, so there is that.