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There won't be many "batteries" when renewables are supplying most power. We have fairly cheap solutions for large-scale energy storage like hydroelectric with

by TillE 10y ago

There won't be many "batteries" when renewables are supplying most power. We have fairly cheap solutions for large-scale energy storage like hydroelectric with pumps.

ztratar 10y ago
You're far from correct. Large-scale energy storage is one of the biggest unsolved problems today, and there are numerous startups in the space. LightSail is an interesting one, and is using compressed air combined with micro-droplets of water to ensure stable, efficient energy transfer. Renewables success is heavily tied to battery technology. The wind isn't always moving and the sun isn't always shining, so you need to store that energy. Right now with existing battery tech, most of the energy is lost in a storage process due to heat or battery wear/tear. If energy storage was solved today, the oil/gas industry would be on their knees.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  China is installing an 800MW-h vanadium flow battery: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2016/12/13/vanadium-flow-batteries-the-energy-storage-breakthrough-weve-needed/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2016/12/13/vanadium-f... The cost claimed for a small installation coming online in Washington is $0.05 per kilowatt hour. That might not be cheap enough to beat out fossil fuel generation, but it is cheap enough to run the world on.
- Gibbon1 10y ago
  If one runs the numbers, Pumped Heat Electrical Storage should work fine for time shifting energy at scale. None of the technology needed is at all novel or untested. All of the technologies needed scale up very well. Basically you store electric power as heat using motor/generators and axial flow compressors/turbines. Storage media is 'a big steel tank of hot rocks'. One can quibble but the end to end efficiency is going to be better than 60%. Could be as high as 80%. Far as I understand the reason such doesn't exist is there is no current market need until you have excess peak solar or wind power.
barney54 10y ago
It is incredibly difficult to site new pumped hydro in places like California today. It might work in other places, but it's almost impossible in California.
- ahartman00 10y ago
  this source claims that it would not be feasible to rely only on pumped hydro, due to the scale. [1] 1. http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/ http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-stor...
  - Gibbon1 10y ago
    That source does thing like assume >I argued that we need 7 days of storage for it to be invisible to the end-user That said even with more reasonable numbers pumped hydro storage isn't going to work because the energy density is too low. I think roughly to store 1kwh your need to raise ~3.66 t water to 100m. Not very energy dense. However 1.8 kg of stone at 1000 degC will store about 1kwh of energy. That's a lot better. What's curious is Tom Murphy studiously ignores thermal storage.

by TillE 10y ago

There won't be many "batteries" when renewables are supplying most power. We have fairly cheap solutions for large-scale energy storage like hydroelectric with pumps.

ztratar 10y ago

You're far from correct. Large-scale energy storage is one of the biggest unsolved problems today, and there are numerous startups in the space. LightSail is an interesting one, and is using compressed air combined with micro-droplets of water to ensure stable, efficient energy transfer. Renewables success is heavily tied to battery technology. The wind isn't always moving and the sun isn't always shining, so you need to store that energy. Right now with existing battery tech, most of the energy is lost in a storage process due to heat or battery wear/tear. If energy storage was solved today, the oil/gas industry would be on their knees.

maxerickson 10y ago
China is installing an 800MW-h vanadium flow battery: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2016/12/13/vanadium-flow-batteries-the-energy-storage-breakthrough-weve-needed/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2016/12/13/vanadium-f... The cost claimed for a small installation coming online in Washington is $0.05 per kilowatt hour. That might not be cheap enough to beat out fossil fuel generation, but it is cheap enough to run the world on.
Gibbon1 10y ago
If one runs the numbers, Pumped Heat Electrical Storage should work fine for time shifting energy at scale. None of the technology needed is at all novel or untested. All of the technologies needed scale up very well. Basically you store electric power as heat using motor/generators and axial flow compressors/turbines. Storage media is 'a big steel tank of hot rocks'. One can quibble but the end to end efficiency is going to be better than 60%. Could be as high as 80%. Far as I understand the reason such doesn't exist is there is no current market need until you have excess peak solar or wind power.

barney54 10y ago

It is incredibly difficult to site new pumped hydro in places like California today. It might work in other places, but it's almost impossible in California.

ahartman00 10y ago
this source claims that it would not be feasible to rely only on pumped hydro, due to the scale. [1] 1. http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/ http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-stor...
- Gibbon1 10y ago
  That source does thing like assume >I argued that we need 7 days of storage for it to be invisible to the end-user That said even with more reasonable numbers pumped hydro storage isn't going to work because the energy density is too low. I think roughly to store 1kwh your need to raise ~3.66 t water to 100m. Not very energy dense. However 1.8 kg of stone at 1000 degC will store about 1kwh of energy. That's a lot better. What's curious is Tom Murphy studiously ignores thermal storage.