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Not seeing racism. Again, just seeing white men not treated as the default standard, and white people here seeing that as racism.

by st3v3r 10y ago

cyphar 10y ago
Here's an easy test to see if such statements are racist. Swap "white" for any other race. If it sounds like racism, then the original statement is by necessity also racist.
- jkelsey 10y ago
  Your test completely ignores historical context.
  - flukus 10y ago
    So does the definition of racism.
- gizmo 10y ago
  That's a terrible test, really. It presumes that all races/ethnicities are treated equally by society, when they fact they aren't. A test like that only works when you swap like for like, and you don't. For instance, many ethnic jokes (racist jokes) only work because they exploit racial stereotypes. Those jokes cease to work when you swap in a different race. Does that mean the original jokes were not racist? Of course it doesn't. Saying "there are too many white guys in the senate" is not racist, because the US senate is disproportionately white. Saying "there are too many black guys in the senate" on the other hand is racist, because there are only 2 of them! Saying "there are too many white guys in tech" isn't racist for the same reason, and actions to diversify tech are not racist against white people either. Conversely, preserving the white-dominated status quo is racist.
  - cyphar 10y ago
    > A test like that only works when you swap like for like, and you don't. Maybe I'm odd for thinking that black people and white people should be treated equally. But sure, let's pretend that racism is only possible to be inflicted on minorities. > Saying "there are too many black guys in the senate" on the other hand is racist No. It would be racist to say "there are too many black guys in the senate -- let's get rid of all of them!". The same applies if you say the same for white people. > and actions to diversify tech are not racist against white people either. I support diversity. But hiring only one group of people is NOT DIVERSITY. It's the _precise opposite_. Historical context or no, by definition you cannot claim that you're making a workplace more diverse if you're only making a decision to systematically hire only one group of people (even if they are the minority, because after X years they will become a majority).
    - gizmo 10y ago
      1. Equal treatment would be correct in a counterfactual society that is not racist. Acting as though society is not racist, when it fact it is, will just preserve the status quo. Racism needs to be actively counteracted for society to get better. 2. No, just stating that "2 out of a 100 black senators is too many" is racist by itself. To get proportional representation for all minorities the number of white people in congress would -- necessarily -- have to go down. So saying "fewer white people in congress" is not racist because that's just how arithmetic works. 3. I don't know where you got the idea that diversity efforts are about hiring one group of people, but you're mistaken. Diversity efforts are about becoming more inclusive towards different races/ethnicities, religions, LGBTQ folks and so on. White men comprise only 31% of society and business and government should reflect that. I think you're just confused about the purpose of diversity efforts.
      - cyphar 10y ago
        Points 1 and 2 I'm not _entirely_ sure if I agree with them (I agree there is a problem with racism, but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusions about what is and is not racist as a result), but point 3 is the only one I feel I need to respond to. > 3. I don't know where you got the idea that diversity efforts are about hiring one group of people, but you're mistaken. This thread is about hiring managers that have publicly stated they only hire minorities, and GitHub having internal presentations where they say that "white middle managers have no empathy". I agree that diversity requires hiring a diverse group of people you hire (by definition). But that's not what the GitHub hiring managers appear to think (and that was the whole point of this thread).

Not seeing racism. Again, just seeing white men not treated as the default standard, and white people here seeing that as racism.

by st3v3r 10y ago

Not seeing racism. Again, just seeing white men not treated as the default standard, and white people here seeing that as racism.

cyphar 10y ago

Here's an easy test to see if such statements are racist. Swap "white" for any other race. If it sounds like racism, then the original statement is by necessity also racist.

jkelsey 10y ago
Your test completely ignores historical context.
- flukus 10y ago
  So does the definition of racism.
gizmo 10y ago
That's a terrible test, really. It presumes that all races/ethnicities are treated equally by society, when they fact they aren't. A test like that only works when you swap like for like, and you don't. For instance, many ethnic jokes (racist jokes) only work because they exploit racial stereotypes. Those jokes cease to work when you swap in a different race. Does that mean the original jokes were not racist? Of course it doesn't. Saying "there are too many white guys in the senate" is not racist, because the US senate is disproportionately white. Saying "there are too many black guys in the senate" on the other hand is racist, because there are only 2 of them! Saying "there are too many white guys in tech" isn't racist for the same reason, and actions to diversify tech are not racist against white people either. Conversely, preserving the white-dominated status quo is racist.
- cyphar 10y ago
  > A test like that only works when you swap like for like, and you don't. Maybe I'm odd for thinking that black people and white people should be treated equally. But sure, let's pretend that racism is only possible to be inflicted on minorities. > Saying "there are too many black guys in the senate" on the other hand is racist No. It would be racist to say "there are too many black guys in the senate -- let's get rid of all of them!". The same applies if you say the same for white people. > and actions to diversify tech are not racist against white people either. I support diversity. But hiring only one group of people is NOT DIVERSITY. It's the _precise opposite_. Historical context or no, by definition you cannot claim that you're making a workplace more diverse if you're only making a decision to systematically hire only one group of people (even if they are the minority, because after X years they will become a majority).
  - gizmo 10y ago
    1. Equal treatment would be correct in a counterfactual society that is not racist. Acting as though society is not racist, when it fact it is, will just preserve the status quo. Racism needs to be actively counteracted for society to get better. 2. No, just stating that "2 out of a 100 black senators is too many" is racist by itself. To get proportional representation for all minorities the number of white people in congress would -- necessarily -- have to go down. So saying "fewer white people in congress" is not racist because that's just how arithmetic works. 3. I don't know where you got the idea that diversity efforts are about hiring one group of people, but you're mistaken. Diversity efforts are about becoming more inclusive towards different races/ethnicities, religions, LGBTQ folks and so on. White men comprise only 31% of society and business and government should reflect that. I think you're just confused about the purpose of diversity efforts.
    - cyphar 10y ago
      Points 1 and 2 I'm not _entirely_ sure if I agree with them (I agree there is a problem with racism, but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusions about what is and is not racist as a result), but point 3 is the only one I feel I need to respond to. > 3. I don't know where you got the idea that diversity efforts are about hiring one group of people, but you're mistaken. This thread is about hiring managers that have publicly stated they only hire minorities, and GitHub having internal presentations where they say that "white middle managers have no empathy". I agree that diversity requires hiring a diverse group of people you hire (by definition). But that's not what the GitHub hiring managers appear to think (and that was the whole point of this thread).