4 ms·

These just sound like complaints from a typical novice to LISP. LISP syntax is made of nested lists (an AST) and atoms. Representing sequential types as atoms w

These just sound like complaints from a typical novice to LISP. LISP syntax is made of nested lists (an AST) and atoms. Representing sequential types as atoms with ugly reader macros based on the implementation of said sequential types strikes someone who knows a real LISP language as an ugly and ignorant thing to do. If you find real LISP code unreadable because it doesn't look like javascript - because you can't tell when your sequence is a linked list or an array when there's no curly braces - I suggest learning to read and write LISP code and understand how LISP works. A real LISP I mean, not clojure. Again, other LISPs have data structures aren't from linked list. A complete myth that that they only use linked lists.

keymone 10y ago
These sound just like ramblings of typical elitist. If your main concern is to have language that only appeals to other elitists - you'll take that language to grave with you. Syntax is something novices judge the language by. Their criticism is not always valid, but if language can make concessions that don't undermine it's core values but lower the learning curve - there is literally no reason to not make these concessions. No reasons apart from elitism and purism that is and those are just plain stupid. Clojure is great example of lisp that is easier to grasp (one of main reason being sane use of data literals) but still remains lisp all the way down to it's core.
- lacampbell 10y ago
  I don't know if understanding LISP is really elitism. I don't think it requires some great intellect to get it. I think the key reason people have the attitude against the syntax is because they learned languages that looked a certain way, and to them - that's programming damn it. I mean LISP syntax is objectively much more simple. I think if you were to sit programming novices - with no pre-conceived notions - infront of an s-expression language and an ALGOL looking one, you wouldn't find much difference on which is easier to learn. I genuinely think people have difficulty letting go of stuff when they learn LISP. When I first started I thought all the parens were silly as well, and I thought stuff like sweet-expressions [1] were clearly the way forward and it was only those stuffy old elitist scheme programmers who couldn't see it. But over time I saw that the simplicity and regularity of s-expressions made it worth it. Clojures awkward smashing together of javascriptish syntax into LISP reminds me of nothing so much as training wheels on a bicycle. Sure I suppose you can call those of us who ride a bicycle with two simple wheels "elitsts" and accuse of rejecting "convenience", but to be honest when I see people defending ugly literals and complicating the syntax of a LISP language, I can't help but suggesting that they learn to ride a damn bike. [1] http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-110/srfi-110.html http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-110/srfi-110.html
  - keymone 10y ago
    > I don't think it requires some great intellect to get it yeah, exactly, it doesn't. which makes lisp elitism very awkward. > LISP syntax is objectively much more simple things can be too simple, to the point where it is counter productive and harmful. example - why do you need all these weird symbols to represent numbers 1234567890? seems like 1 does the job just fine. unary arithmetic is trivial - just stitch numbers together and you have addition, just repeat them X times and you have multiplication. no need for weird shenanigans with symbols changing because of trivial operations. > Clojures awkward smashing together of javascriptish syntax i genuinely think you have difficulty letting go of your biases. all clojure did was designate two more kinds of parens to mean something useful in a language. it's a tradeoff between being pure lisp and being easier to grasp while still remaining lisp. but i can see now, tradeoffs are hard to understand for elitists/purists. i wonder if every time when you buy a keyboard/laptop you're ripping off those damn [] and {}. because your arguments are unreasonable enough to think that might actually be true.
    - kazinator 10y ago
      > > I don't think it requires some great intellect to get it > yeah, exactly, it doesn't. which makes lisp elitism very awkward. The thing is, people sometimes use elitism as a synonym for chauvinism, which it isn't. "Lisp is easy, everyone should use it for everything" doesn't, by itself, meet the definition elitism because it doesn't refer to some small elite group being somehow better than others.
      - keymone 10y ago
        > "Lisp is easy, everyone should use it for everything" doesn't, by itself, meet the definition elitism agreed. > Lisp is only pure s-expressions and everybody who can't read them or wants a more 'convenient' syntax are too stupid to understand it however does meet that definition in my opinion.
        kazinator 10y ago
        Well, too stupid to be computer programmers, that much is true. That sort of statement is tech elitism, not Lisp elitism. Usually out of frustration when dealing with trolls. I don't believe that there are any programmers who genuinely can't deal with Lisp syntax at least as well as they deal with any other syntax. There are only trolls who lie in making that claim, and there are trolling non-programmers who tell the truth. Simplified syntax is mostly a threat to those who hold mastery of some arcane syntax as their principal intellectual achievement: i.e. advanced newbies. The fact that exactly the same semantics can be expressed in a syntax that lesser newbies can learn in a day is a big threat to someone who spent months memorizing some syntax, because it means something in which they take pride as a great value is actually worthless "fool's gold". If you're a professional who does a lot of numeric work with arithmetic expressions, working in S-exps will make you grumble, but you can do it.

keymone 10y ago

These sound just like ramblings of typical elitist. If your main concern is to have language that only appeals to other elitists - you'll take that language to grave with you. Syntax is something novices judge the language by. Their criticism is not always valid, but if language can make concessions that don't undermine it's core values but lower the learning curve - there is literally no reason to not make these concessions. No reasons apart from elitism and purism that is and those are just plain stupid. Clojure is great example of lisp that is easier to grasp (one of main reason being sane use of data literals) but still remains lisp all the way down to it's core.

lacampbell 10y ago
I don't know if understanding LISP is really elitism. I don't think it requires some great intellect to get it. I think the key reason people have the attitude against the syntax is because they learned languages that looked a certain way, and to them - that's programming damn it. I mean LISP syntax is objectively much more simple. I think if you were to sit programming novices - with no pre-conceived notions - infront of an s-expression language and an ALGOL looking one, you wouldn't find much difference on which is easier to learn. I genuinely think people have difficulty letting go of stuff when they learn LISP. When I first started I thought all the parens were silly as well, and I thought stuff like sweet-expressions [1] were clearly the way forward and it was only those stuffy old elitist scheme programmers who couldn't see it. But over time I saw that the simplicity and regularity of s-expressions made it worth it. Clojures awkward smashing together of javascriptish syntax into LISP reminds me of nothing so much as training wheels on a bicycle. Sure I suppose you can call those of us who ride a bicycle with two simple wheels "elitsts" and accuse of rejecting "convenience", but to be honest when I see people defending ugly literals and complicating the syntax of a LISP language, I can't help but suggesting that they learn to ride a damn bike. [1] http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-110/srfi-110.html http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-110/srfi-110.html
- keymone 10y ago
  > I don't think it requires some great intellect to get it yeah, exactly, it doesn't. which makes lisp elitism very awkward. > LISP syntax is objectively much more simple things can be too simple, to the point where it is counter productive and harmful. example - why do you need all these weird symbols to represent numbers 1234567890? seems like 1 does the job just fine. unary arithmetic is trivial - just stitch numbers together and you have addition, just repeat them X times and you have multiplication. no need for weird shenanigans with symbols changing because of trivial operations. > Clojures awkward smashing together of javascriptish syntax i genuinely think you have difficulty letting go of your biases. all clojure did was designate two more kinds of parens to mean something useful in a language. it's a tradeoff between being pure lisp and being easier to grasp while still remaining lisp. but i can see now, tradeoffs are hard to understand for elitists/purists. i wonder if every time when you buy a keyboard/laptop you're ripping off those damn [] and {}. because your arguments are unreasonable enough to think that might actually be true.
  - kazinator 10y ago
    > > I don't think it requires some great intellect to get it > yeah, exactly, it doesn't. which makes lisp elitism very awkward. The thing is, people sometimes use elitism as a synonym for chauvinism, which it isn't. "Lisp is easy, everyone should use it for everything" doesn't, by itself, meet the definition elitism because it doesn't refer to some small elite group being somehow better than others.
    - keymone 10y ago
      > "Lisp is easy, everyone should use it for everything" doesn't, by itself, meet the definition elitism agreed. > Lisp is only pure s-expressions and everybody who can't read them or wants a more 'convenient' syntax are too stupid to understand it however does meet that definition in my opinion.
      - kazinator 10y ago
        Well, too stupid to be computer programmers, that much is true. That sort of statement is tech elitism, not Lisp elitism. Usually out of frustration when dealing with trolls. I don't believe that there are any programmers who genuinely can't deal with Lisp syntax at least as well as they deal with any other syntax. There are only trolls who lie in making that claim, and there are trolling non-programmers who tell the truth. Simplified syntax is mostly a threat to those who hold mastery of some arcane syntax as their principal intellectual achievement: i.e. advanced newbies. The fact that exactly the same semantics can be expressed in a syntax that lesser newbies can learn in a day is a big threat to someone who spent months memorizing some syntax, because it means something in which they take pride as a great value is actually worthless "fool's gold". If you're a professional who does a lot of numeric work with arithmetic expressions, working in S-exps will make you grumble, but you can do it.